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Old 07-23-2012, 04:02 PM   #101 (permalink)
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So your point is poor countries should be allowed to all have guns? I don't get your focus on economic success. The US had a successful economy in the past and the crime rates were still there. You are not convincing me that gun laws should lighten up.
No I don't agree with guns at all, I'm just looking at the correlation between crime and economics. The two often go hand in hand, but in the case of the USA that doesn't seem to hold true and its something of exception. My only take on it, is that the USA was built up on guns and superior armaments over the indigenous population and gun culture developed and has been present ever since. In Europe we've never had the same historical parallels, so gun culture is totally alien to us.
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If you can't deal with the fact that there are 6+ billion people in the world and none of them think exactly the same that's not my problem. Just deal with it yourself or make actual conversation. This isn't a court and I'm not some poet or prophet that needs everything I say to be analytically critiqued.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:09 PM   #102 (permalink)
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No I don't agree with guns at all, I'm just looking at the correlation between crime and economics. The two often go hand in hand, but in the case of the USA that doesn't seem to hold true and its something of exception. My only take on it, is that the USA was built up on guns and superior armaments over the indigenous population and gun culture developed and has been present ever since. In Europe we've never had the same historical parallels, so gun culture is totally alien to us.
I think, despite how it may look from the outside, there's a really big division of opinion about guns and gun control in the US. Like I said earlier, I believe 45% of the population favors stricter gun laws.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:14 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Don't forget though that they are also the states with the most gun restrictions, we might be doing more harm than good in those more populated states, notice that crime has gone up over the years as guns have been outlawed in those states, even as the population barely changes, but there is also more laws to break, more things are illegal in today's society..

Example; the drug cartels were a result of the war on drugs, the war on drugs and prohibition turned more people into hardened criminals than it did doing anything good for them, rather than having family, friends and churches solve these social medical problems. We send more people to jail than any other country..

When you look at the charts, California hit a peak of 4,000 in the early 90's and from there crime went down at a steady pace.. I don't think it makes much of a difference if you outlaw guns or not, people will still commit crimes, strap bombs to themselves, or get them smuggled in.. Tons of people were killed in a Norway bombing, it can happen anywhere..
I disagree that it doesn't make a difference, and statistics from places such as the U.K. certainly suggest a correlation between violent crimes and gun control. Yes, criminals will still manage to get a hold on guns (bordering Mexico being a real problem in this scenario), but it'll be a lot more difficult to get your hands on a weapon, making it less likely for 'spur of the moment' type criminals to actually go through with their actions.

And like I was talking about earlier, in an ironic way being unarmed is safer in a lot of situations as opposed to being armed. When you get tragedies like this that happen, you realize that people had the opportunity to carry a concealed weapon, yet still didn't, so the whole supposed positive of concealed gun laws doesn't seem to be very practical in these types of situations anyways.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:20 PM   #104 (permalink)
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No I don't agree with guns at all, I'm just looking at the correlation between crime and economics. The two often go hand in hand, but in the case of the USA that doesn't seem to hold true and its something of exception. My only take on it, is that the USA was built up on guns and superior armaments over the indigenous population and gun culture developed and has been present ever since. In Europe we've never had the same historical parallels, so gun culture is totally alien to us.
That's a fair point. It's more complicated than anything we are pointing out... It's a big mash up of all these issues. I'm just trying to get people to see that no matter the cause, all signs point to stricter gun laws.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:01 PM   #105 (permalink)
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I think, despite how it may look from the outside, there's a really big division of opinion about guns and gun control in the US. Like I said earlier, I believe 45% of the population favors stricter gun laws.
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That's a fair point. It's more complicated than anything we are pointing out... It's a big mash up of all these issues. I'm just trying to get people to see that no matter the cause, all signs point to stricter gun laws.
Next point of issue, has got to be states with the death penalty. Do states with the death penalty have less gun crime? Or it makes no difference at all to gun crime?
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:06 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Next point of issue, has got to be states with the death penalty. Do states with the death penalty have less gun crime? Or it makes no difference at all to gun crime?
Why would there be a correlation to "gun crime"? Not all capital offenses involve guns and not all gun crimes are capital offenses.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:15 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Why would there be a correlation to "gun crime"? Not all capital offenses involve guns and not all gun crimes are capital offenses.
I'm only talking about gun crime here and not other types of crime.

You mean some gun crimes are not capital (I guess that means state) crimes in some states?
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If you can't deal with the fact that there are 6+ billion people in the world and none of them think exactly the same that's not my problem. Just deal with it yourself or make actual conversation. This isn't a court and I'm not some poet or prophet that needs everything I say to be analytically critiqued.
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:17 PM   #108 (permalink)
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I'm only talking about gun crime here and not other types of crime.

You mean some gun crimes are not capital (I guess that means state) crimes in some states?
"Capital" means they are punishable by death. What I'm saying is that most gun crimes (i.e. possession of an illegal firearm, robbing someone at gunpoint, etc.), even in states with the death penalty, are not punishable by execution. That's why I don't really see the connection to whether or not the state has the death penalty, which is generally reserved for murder, gun or no gun.
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:04 AM   #109 (permalink)
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"Capital" means they are punishable by death. What I'm saying is that most gun crimes (i.e. possession of an illegal firearm, robbing someone at gunpoint, etc.), even in states with the death penalty, are not punishable by execution. That's why I don't really see the connection to whether or not the state has the death penalty, which is generally reserved for murder, gun or no gun.
What I'm referring to is this question.

If a person murders somebody with a firearm, are the statistics for this type of crime higher, lower or more or less the same in a state that has the death penalty? I'm just trying to fathom if capital punishment is any type of deterrent here. I know murder is murder gun or no gun, but as we're talking gun crime here, I'm just restricting it to guns.
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If you can't deal with the fact that there are 6+ billion people in the world and none of them think exactly the same that's not my problem. Just deal with it yourself or make actual conversation. This isn't a court and I'm not some poet or prophet that needs everything I say to be analytically critiqued.
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:28 AM   #110 (permalink)
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What I'm referring to is this question.

If a person murders somebody with a firearm, are the statistics for this type of crime higher, lower or more or less the same in a state that has the death penalty? I'm just trying to fathom if capital punishment is any type of deterrent here. I know murder is murder gun or no gun, but as we're talking gun crime here, I'm just restricting it to guns.
Okay, well here's the breakdown...

The ten states with the highest rate of gun murder are:
  1. Louisiana
  2. Maryland
  3. Mississippi
  4. California
  5. Nevada
  6. South Carolina
  7. Illinois*
  8. Michigan*
  9. Arizona
  10. New Mexico*

The ten states with the lowest rate of gun murder are:
  1. New Hampshire
  2. Vermont*
  3. Hawaii*
  4. Wyoming
  5. North Dakota*
  6. Maine*
  7. Iowa*
  8. South Dakota
  9. Utah
  10. Idaho

States without the death penalty are marked with asterisks. Not too much of a pattern here, although if you look at the top five in each category, you notice that all of the worst states for gun murder have the death penalty, while only 2 out of 5 of the best states have it. It should also be pointed out that, even though New Hampshire has the death penalty on the books, they haven't executed anyone in over 35 years. Similarly, Wyoming hasn't executed anyone in 20 years.

(death penalty source, murder by gun source)
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