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View Poll Results: Do you like socialism? (explain reasons in thread)
Yes 16 61.54%
No 9 34.62%
I'm confused 1 3.85%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-17-2015, 03:43 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Yes, anyone can potentially own a business, but there's only so many people who can fill a certain socio-economic strata before there's no more room. If a business owner didn't have lower paid employees because everyone else had their own business, then the entire scheme would fail. Capitalism requires a certain number of people to fail, or at least succeed less than others, financially speaking. The entire reason you are able to own your own business, besides your hard work, is that your peers were less successful than you and therefore left an opening for you to exploit.
I understand the way economic structures work. I never claimed that everyone could own a business, I said i like the option of being able to own one. Capitalism doesn't require people to fail, its just a side effect. Our society in the states is built in with fail-safes for people who don't succeed. Food stamps, welfare, deductions on housing and electricity/water. My peers being less successful then me and leaving an opening isn't always the case. Lots of businesses work in harmony in the states. Finding your niche is all fine and dandy however businesses are always dependent upon raw materials and outside suppliers which actually employ others.
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Old 02-17-2015, 04:08 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I didn't forget you Epoch, i'm just growing keyboard weary fighting this battle alone. LOL I think in theory alot of what you say holds weight, but there are so many more flaws invested in Socialism.
Right, and I think I made it pretty clear that I'm not suggesting socialism as a preferable alternative to what we have now. I'm only suggesting that a lot of us are too easy on capitalism, we get so caught up in our own success and work ethic that we forget how we got here in the first place and how there are many people out there who weren't in a position like ours. We need to stop saying things like "Everybody has equal opportunity" or "Everybody has the potential to do this or that", it's over-generalizing, it's failing to acknowledge people with disabilities, birth defects, and mental illnesses, it's failing to acknowledge being born into poverty, it's failing to acknowledge being scammed by others. It's that kind of ignorance that allows holes in the system to sneak by unchecked. If we want capitalism to continue working as well as it does it needs to monitored, we can't just kneel down before it, we must identify its flaws and address them in one way or another. That doesn't mean pushing for socialism, that means adapting the current system to suit a complex society where not everybody is born in the same neighborhood.
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Old 02-17-2015, 04:17 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I understand the way economic structures work. I never claimed that everyone could own a business, I said i like the option of being able to own one. Capitalism doesn't require people to fail, its just a side effect. Our society in the states is built in with fail-safes for people who don't succeed. Food stamps, welfare, deductions on housing and electricity/water. My peers being less successful then me and leaving an opening isn't always the case. Lots of businesses work in harmony in the states. Finding your niche is all fine and dandy however businesses are always dependent upon raw materials and outside suppliers which actually employ others.
I'm fine with all that. Redistributed wealth doesn't work in a way that is productive when taken to a certain level. I imagine your business is relatively modest, and your ambitions are relatively modest compared to something like the mentality of a Fortune 500 company (i.e. expansion as opposed to market domination). I imagine you treat your employees with respect and not as simply resources to be exploited.

"Successful" people have a greater understanding about economic issues and an ability to move up in the world, which is necessary for society to function and move forward. But those that operate at the level of a multi-national corporation can't afford to be so "human" when dealing with their employees. At that point it becomes pie charts and statistics that renders the working class as numbers to be treated as expendable. It's pretty much impossible for such high level businessmen to not be predatory to an extent.

That's where capitalism and the free market cease to be merely an opportunity for bettering oneself, and need to be treated with the same kind of mistrust as one must with a national politician, or else we leave ourselves open to exploitation. If we were living in a pre-industrial society, then capitalism would be almost purely positive, but in today's world with its multi-national corporations, there needs to be protection for those at the lower end of the socio-economic scale. And that means a certain amount of socialism mixed with capitalism.
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Old 02-17-2015, 04:20 PM   #44 (permalink)
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And that means a certain amount of socialism mixed with capitalism.
This.
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Old 02-17-2015, 04:28 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Right, and I think I made it pretty clear that I'm not suggesting socialism as a preferable alternative to what we have now. I'm only suggesting that a lot of us are too easy on capitalism, we get so caught up in our own success and work ethic that we forget how we got here in the first place and how there are many people out there who weren't in a position like ours. We need to stop saying things like "Everybody has equal opportunity" or "Everybody has the potential to do this or that", it's over-generalizing, it's failing to acknowledge people with disabilities, birth defects, and mental illnesses, it's failing to acknowledge being born into poverty, it's failing to acknowledge being scammed by others. It's that kind of ignorance that allows holes in the system to sneak by unchecked. If we want capitalism to continue working as well as it does it needs to monitored, we can't just kneel down before it, we must identify its flaws and address them in one way or another. That doesn't mean pushing for socialism, that means adapting the current system to suit a complex society where not everybody is born in the same neighborhood.
I noticed you mentioned that capitalism was a far better option, I was merely saying that to address the forum. I actually agree with about 90 percent of what you've written so I think we're on the same page. And I acknowledge that Capitalism has its faults, albeit I see it as the only alternative. People with disabilities/birth defects/mental illnesses are afforded care and job assistance that others are not privy to so I disagree in a sense with that assessment. Being born into poverty even affords you certain student loans and scholarships that people are not afforded in slightly different tax brackets. I've seen a drastic amount of change in that aspect since i've left school. I think more opportunity is out there then not. The current system isn't without its flaws but then again there isn't much in the World without flaws. I do have to say you've given me much more to think about in challenging capitalist society then the people who want to adopt socialism as a real means.
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Old 02-17-2015, 04:32 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I'm fine with all that. Redistributed wealth doesn't work in a way that is productive when taken to a certain level. I imagine your business is relatively modest, and your ambitions are relatively modest compared to something like the mentality of a Fortune 500 company (i.e. expansion as opposed to market domination). I imagine you treat your employees with respect and not as simply resources to be exploited.

"Successful" people have a greater understanding about economic issues and an ability to move up in the world, which is necessary for society to function and move forward. But those that operate at the level of a multi-national corporation can't afford to be so "human" when dealing with their employees. At that point it becomes pie charts and statistics that renders the working class as numbers to be treated as expendable. It's pretty much impossible for such high level businessmen to not be predatory to an extent.

That's where capitalism and the free market cease to be merely an opportunity for bettering oneself, and need to be treated with the same kind of mistrust as one must with a national politician, or else we leave ourselves open to exploitation. If we were living in a pre-industrial society, then capitalism would be almost purely positive, but in today's world with its multi-national corporations, there needs to be protection for those at the lower end of the socio-economic scale. And that means a certain amount of socialism mixed with capitalism.
Corporate theft and Capitalism are two different discussions altogether. They sometimes can go hand and hand but I think we're straying from the original point of the thread. I think you are on board with capitalism being the best alternative also. Sure corporate business can be cut throat, but it also creates jobs on such a continual higher level that its always gonna be a necessary evil.
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Old 02-17-2015, 04:36 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I have officially retired from the thread. You guys will be sorry you commie mother****ers. LOL
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Old 02-17-2015, 04:45 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Corporate theft and Capitalism are two different discussions altogether. They sometimes can go hand and hand but I think we're straying from the original point of the thread. I think you are on board with capitalism being the best alternative also. Sure corporate business can be cut throat, but it also creates jobs on such a continual higher level that its always gonna be a necessary evil.
I definitely support capitalism, but "corporate theft" and capitalism are impossible to be taken as two separate issues. As long as there is capitalism dealing with millions and billions of dollars then the exploitation will be just extreme.
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Old 02-17-2015, 04:51 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I definitely support capitalism, but "corporate theft" and capitalism are impossible to be taken as two separate issues. As long as there is capitalism dealing with millions and billions of dollars then the exploitation will be just extreme.
I think you are cherry picking to a certain degree what i've said. I meant that some corporations are not involved in corporate theft therefore its hard to comply with it being linked together as one entity. I understand your point but not every corporation should be grouped in as a business predicated on theft. I seem to have noticed a correlation between those advocating Socialism and those that have not. Most who defend Socialism seem to be from Europe, is it coincidence or not?
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Old 02-18-2015, 09:51 AM   #50 (permalink)
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I seem to have noticed a correlation between those advocating Socialism and those that have not. Most who defend Socialism seem to be from Europe, is it coincidence or not?
Ja, and most of those who defend capitalism seem to be from America. And?
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