The Refugee crisis

Trollheart · 11-22-2015, 05:21 AM

Now of course we have some serious problems in the wake of the Paris attacks, as people think, well, if these guys had not been let in to France/Europe in the first place, they wouldn't have been in a position to carry out those atrocities.

It's a hard one to argue against, even given my stance on immigration. I know the chances are it's a tiny percentage, that most of the immigrants are genuine, but even so, it only takes two or three people to get together, plan, and cause absolute carnage...

**Janszoon** · 11-22-2015, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Now of course we have some serious problems in the wake of the Paris attacks, as people think, well, if these guys had not been let in to France/Europe in the first place, they wouldn't have been in a position to carry out those atrocities.

It's a hard one to argue against, even given my stance on immigration. I know the chances are it's a tiny percentage, that most of the immigrants are genuine, but even so, it only takes two or three people to get together, plan, and cause absolute carnage...

Except all or almost all of the people who committed the Paris attacks weren't immigrants.

Trollheart · 11-23-2015, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Except all or almost all of the people who committed the Paris attacks weren't immigrants.

Well they were. They weren't born in France, they emigrated there. So they're immigrants. Aren't they? I mean, names like they're putting out on the news, they're not French names surely...

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-11-2015, 11:57 AM

well i guess i'll just amend my claim to rape, burglary and robbery instead of "violent crime". since as you said.. there are problems with comparing "violent crime" in general... so it is actually better to compare specific crimes.

Quote:

However, before we put too much credibility on these calculations, we should note that criminologists say there is actually no good way to compare violent crime rates in these two countries.

Our rough effort to equalize the definitions improved the quality of the comparison, but what we did is not enough to fix the comparison entirely, said James Alan Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University. "Once you get away from clearly defined terms like homicides, all kinds of problems come in," Fox said. "You have to take comparisons not just with a grain of salt but with the entire shaker."

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...her-violent-c/

so you're right to correct me using the term "violent crime." beyond that though my point is the same.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-11-2015, 12:53 PM

so i'm trying to find the actual stats for london and ny... the most recent annual data i could find for ny was 2013, but the london stats are for the last 12 months

............| murder.|rape..|.robbery|.burglary
london....|107......|5331..|..21,968|..71,541
ny..........|335......|1112..|..19,170|..16,606

Metropolitan Police Service - Crime Figures
Crime in New York, New York (NY): murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, burglaries, thefts, auto thefts, arson, law enforcement employees, police officers, crime map

i can't do "assault" because london doesn't list that. the closest thing they have is "violence against the person", which janz noted is vague. that figure is at 212,240 annually, while ny lists 31,767 annual "assaults." obviously these terms probably have different meanings so they can't really be compared... for whatever reason they don't have any stats on what we would consider "assaults" in london so there's nothing i can do about that.

**Frownland** · 11-23-2015, 11:31 AM

*facepalm*

My first name is French but that doesn't mean that I emigrated from France. You can be born in a place without your parents changing your last name to be more fitting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...paris-attacks/

**Frownland** · 11-23-2015, 05:23 PM

Yup. So what was your point?

**Goofle** · 11-28-2015, 06:55 PM

There's nothing wrong with bringing in as many refugees as you can handle, the issue has always been the vetting process. Are we bringing in families/people that simply want to leave because of the state their country is in, or are we bringing in basically anybody from those countries without really questioning who it is?

The latter seems to be the truth from what I gather.

Whilst I would never be against humanitarian efforts to help those in need, you do have to draw a line. If you are bringing in so many people that your own economy cannot sustain it, there's a problem. Regardless of the race or religion that these people are, you simply cannot just open the floodgates and hope all will be well.

I don't want to get deep into the subject of Islamist extremism because it seems to be quite a touchy area around here, but I will say that you cannot ignore the very real problem that the religion seems to bring wherever it lands.

Chula Vista · 11-28-2015, 10:05 PM

Spanish inquisition?

The Batlord · 11-28-2015, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

Spanish inquisition?

I wasn't expecting that.

11-22-2015, 05:21 AM	#1 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,996	Now of course we have some serious problems in the wake of the Paris attacks, as people think, well, if these guys had not been let in to France/Europe in the first place, they wouldn't have been in a position to carry out those atrocities. It's a hard one to argue against, even given my stance on immigration. I know the chances are it's a tiny percentage, that most of the immigrants are genuine, but even so, it only takes two or three people to get together, plan, and cause absolute carnage... __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

11-11-2015, 12:53 PM	#5 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	so i'm trying to find the actual stats for london and ny... the most recent annual data i could find for ny was 2013, but the london stats are for the last 12 months ............\| murder.\|rape..\|.robbery\|.burglary london....\|107......\|5331..\|..21,968\|..71,541 ny..........\|335......\|1112..\|..19,170\|..16,606 Metropolitan Police Service - Crime Figures Crime in New York, New York (NY): murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, burglaries, thefts, auto thefts, arson, law enforcement employees, police officers, crime map i can't do "assault" because london doesn't list that. the closest thing they have is "violence against the person", which janz noted is vague. that figure is at 212,240 annually, while ny lists 31,767 annual "assaults." obviously these terms probably have different meanings so they can't really be compared... for whatever reason they don't have any stats on what we would consider "assaults" in london so there's nothing i can do about that. Last edited by John Wilkes Booth; 11-11-2015 at 01:03 PM.

11-23-2015, 11:31 AM	#6 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	facepalm My first name is French but that doesn't mean that I emigrated from France. You can be born in a place without your parents changing your last name to be more fitting. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...paris-attacks/ __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

11-23-2015, 05:23 PM	#7 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	Yup. So what was your point? __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

11-28-2015, 10:05 PM	#9 (permalink)
Chula Vista Toasted Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SoCal by way of Boston Posts: 11,332	Spanish inquisition? __________________ “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”