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Old 08-25-2015, 09:58 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Of course something being illegal doesn't automatically make it morally wrong, but in the case of immigration, it's still something that nations have the right to enforce. We can't disregard all laws because some people feel it shouldn't be illegal. It has to be looked at in a case by case basis.
Okay? When your entire justification for something being wrong is that it's illegal, it's totally justified for me to say that that doesn't make it wrong.
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As for services, I disagree. Legal citizens pay a certain percentage of their taxes to fund those programs, so those programs should only go towards helping legal citizens. Now, of course, there are legal Americans that lose their job or have to go on unemployment so they can't always contribute, but that's why we have those systems in place, so that we can take care of our own. A person that doesn't even respect our borders shouldn't get to take advantage of the social programs that are designed to help native born citizens.
Okay, sure. That's why having a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants is a good thing - because as more people come in, they will end up paying taxes to fund the programs we're talking about. But it doesn't even matter, because undocumented immigrants aren't eligible for these public services thanks to the 1996 welfare reform law - they can use a couple things, but not Medicare, Medicaid (except in emergencies), SSI, CHIP, TANF... almost anything you think of as a welfare/public assistance program the government provides is something that undocumented immigrants cannot access. In fact, even "legal" immigrants have to jump through a ridiculous number of hoops before they can access these programs as well.

Regardless, I would argue that all people are entitled to certain things, such as healthcare, a job, and a basic income. At the point where you're ready to deny people things they can barely live without just because they were not born in America, I don't really have anything to say to you.
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Old 08-25-2015, 10:01 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I agree that she started with the accusations of "misogyny," but Trump has pushed this feud way farther than he's needed to at this point.
Obviously he is a misogynistic pig, so I don't really understand the quotes there. I don't think he's significantly more of one than his fifteen (or whatever) competitors though.
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The fact that he's still tweeting her is enough proof that he needs to quit these sideshow antics and focus more on his campaign, as funny as it may be from time to time.
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those controversial statements are a totally calculated move on his part - he knows people like you will be like "Oh he's standing up to the Democrats," and then when people get mad he gets to complain about political correctness, which just helps him with the base more. He knows what he needs to do to win a primary - although he's not going to.
Maybe not "people like you", but definitely "people".
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Old 08-25-2015, 10:39 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Regardless, I would argue that all people are entitled to certain things, such as healthcare, a job, and a basic income. At the point where you're ready to deny people things they can barely live without just because they were not born in America, I don't really have anything to say to you.
All of this comes down to one question. Why couldn't they have come here legally in the first place? They willingly broke the law by coming here illegally, and people that have a problem with that are labeled the bad guys because they don't want to reward illegal behavior.

I do think we should make the immigration process a hell of a lot easier to perform legally, but supporting amnesty measures just doesn't seem right, because it's essentially saying, "You came here illegally, but oh well, since you're already here, we'll give you an SS number, driver's license, etc, because if we don't, we'll look like *******s." Imagine if a store clerk held the same attitude towards a burglar that came onto his property.

It's a tough position to be in, wanting to enforce the law while not looking like an ******* doing it.
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Old 08-25-2015, 11:04 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Okay? When your entire justification for something being wrong is that it's illegal, it's totally justified for me to say that that doesn't make it wrong.

Okay, sure. That's why having a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants is a good thing - because as more people come in, they will end up paying taxes to fund the programs we're talking about. But it doesn't even matter, because undocumented immigrants aren't eligible for these public services thanks to the 1996 welfare reform law - they can use a couple things, but not Medicare, Medicaid (except in emergencies), SSI, CHIP, TANF... almost anything you think of as a welfare/public assistance program the government provides is something that undocumented immigrants cannot access. In fact, even "legal" immigrants have to jump through a ridiculous number of hoops before they can access these programs as well.

Regardless, I would argue that all people are entitled to certain things, such as healthcare, a job, and a basic income. At the point where you're ready to deny people things they can barely live without just because they were not born in America, I don't really have anything to say to you.
You do realize that illegal immigration costs American taxpayers 113 billion largely as a result of paid social services?

The cost for California alone is 25 billion, placing undue & unsustainable strain on the welfare state that was already teetering near bankruptcy. You do realize this?

You do realize that illegal immigration & mass immigration puts a downward pressure on the wages of unskilled labour? (Reducing the wage of native labours 99 to 118 billion per year)

You do realize that once an ethnic voting bloc that continually cites immigration as major issue on how they choose to vote, can determine the outcome of an election, than it becomes extremely hard to control your border policy.

You do realize all of this?

Did you grow up in a comfortable middle class household? Just curious?
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Old 08-25-2015, 11:33 PM   #15 (permalink)
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All of this comes down to one question. Why couldn't they have come here legally in the first place? They willingly broke the law by coming here illegally, and people that have a problem with that are labeled the bad guys because they don't want to reward illegal behavior.

I do think we should make the immigration process a hell of a lot easier to perform legally, but supporting amnesty measures just doesn't seem right, because it's essentially saying, "You came here illegally, but oh well, since you're already here, we'll give you an SS number, driver's license, etc, because if we don't, we'll look like *******s." Imagine if a store clerk held the same attitude towards a burglar that came onto his property.

It's a tough position to be in, wanting to enforce the law while not looking like an ******* doing it.
As you say, it's super hard to come here legally and lots of people don't have a better option. I don't know why crossing the border to look for a better life is something we should be trying to punish.
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You do realize that illegal immigration costs American taxpayers 113 billion largely as a result of paid social services?

The cost for California alone is 25 billion, placing undue & unsustainable strain on the welfare state that was already teetering near bankruptcy. You do realize this?

You do realize that illegal immigration & mass immigration puts a downward pressure on the wages of unskilled labour? (Reducing the wage of native labours 99 to 118 billion per year)

You do realize that once an ethnic voting bloc that continually cites immigration as major issue on how they choose to vote, can determine the outcome of an election, than it becomes extremely hard to control your border policy.

You do realize all of this?

Did you grow up in a comfortable middle class household? Just curious?
I'll respond to this with actual evidence and not just logic in the morning because I'm super tired right now. I've definitely seen studies that dispute the thing about downward pressure on wages though - I'm pretty sure it basically evens out in the long run - and I'd really appreciate it if you could both cite your sources and explain exactly which social services we're paying $113 billion for, given that undocumented immigrants aren't eligible for most of them.

I'd also dispute that that's necessarily a bad thing - the government should use social services as a way to help people. You say they're costing taxpayers money, but that isn't really true at the point where no politician is saying, "Well, immigrants need social services, so we're raising taxes." These things aren't really "costing taxpayers money" because the amount any given person pays is the same. Like, yeah, when they're contributing to California's budget problems that is an actual harm, but it's not like there aren't other factors there, and the solution being "Let's design policy that targets some of the worst off people in our society" just doesn't make much sense to me.

As far as this downward pressure on wages goes, a lot of it could be solved just by making it harder for employers to exploit undocumented immigrants - in other words, with more liberal immigration policy that doesn't make it so hard to live as an undocumented immigrant, the stuff you're complaining about will not happen or will at least happen to a much lesser extent. As it is, it's really easy for businesspeople to employ undocumented immigrants and threaten to report them to the authorities if they complain about, among other things, their wages being stolen (there are a bunch of other reasons for the wage stuff you're talking about that can also be solved or mitigated with less stringent policy, but that's the most obvious one). I also think that it is good for people to be employed, no matter the country in which they were born, so if there are immigrants making more money, that at least provides a counterweight to there being American citizens making less.

I'm also really confused by the bolded bit. Yes - in a democracy, when a large bloc of voters want a policy adopted, it is politically useful for a party to try to adopt that policy. So?

My family is probably upper-middle class, keeping in mind that like 90% of Americans describe themselves as middle class. So there's a pretty good basis for whatever ad hominem you're try to set up.

("You do realize..." is pretty unnecessary. You can be a condescending dick without being a condescending dick about it.)
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Old 08-26-2015, 12:41 AM   #16 (permalink)
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As you say, it's super hard to come here legally and lots of people don't have a better option. I don't know why crossing the border to look for a better life is something we should be trying to punish.


I'll respond to this with actual evidence and not just logic in the morning because I'm super tired right now. I've definitely seen studies that dispute the thing about downward pressure on wages though - I'm pretty sure it basically evens out in the long run - and I'd really appreciate it if you could both cite your sources and explain exactly which social services we're paying $113 billion for, given that undocumented immigrants aren't eligible for most of them.

I'd also dispute that that's necessarily a bad thing - the government should use social services as a way to help people. You say they're costing taxpayers money, but that isn't really true at the point where no politician is saying, "Well, immigrants need social services, so we're raising taxes." These things aren't really "costing taxpayers money" because the amount any given person pays is the same. Like, yeah, when they're contributing to California's budget problems that is an actual harm, but it's not like there aren't other factors there, and the solution being "Let's design policy that targets some of the worst off people in our society" just doesn't make much sense to me.

As far as this downward pressure on wages goes, a lot of it could be solved just by making it harder for employers to exploit undocumented immigrants - in other words, with more liberal immigration policy that doesn't make it so hard to live as an undocumented immigrant, the stuff you're complaining about will not happen or will at least happen to a much lesser extent. As it is, it's really easy for businesspeople to employ undocumented immigrants and threaten to report them to the authorities if they complain about, among other things, their wages being stolen (there are a bunch of other reasons for the wage stuff you're talking about that can also be solved or mitigated with less stringent policy, but that's the most obvious one). I also think that it is good for people to be employed, no matter the country in which they were born, so if there are immigrants making more money, that at least provides a counterweight to there being American citizens making less.

I'm also really confused by the bolded bit. Yes - in a democracy, when a large bloc of voters want a policy adopted, it is politically useful for a party to try to adopt that policy. So?

My family is probably upper-middle class, keeping in mind that like 90% of Americans describe themselves as middle class. So there's a pretty good basis for whatever ad hominem you're try to set up.

("You do realize..." is pretty unnecessary. You can be a condescending dick without being a condescending dick about it.)
It's common knowledge that illegal immigration costs American tax payer billions every year, there's tons of links.

The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers (2013)

In terms of wages, it doesn't effect the middle class, the "upper" middle class actually benefits. It's the native born "working class" that are impacted. Mass legal immigration has also been shown to impact native born labourers negatively.

Don't take this personally, I asked if you were middle class because whenever I encounter someone on the net giving someone else lectures on immigration or diversity, its always some politically correct middle class twat who grew up in a comfortable home environment. I often find that they are people who never got over being bullied in high school, and therefore often bear grudge against their own culture by championing every socialist agenda on the planet no matter who it adversely impacts. If they had to grind through life they would have a completely different outlook.

Bit of a rant there, but it really, really gets my goat.
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Old 08-26-2015, 01:07 AM   #17 (permalink)
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It's common knowledge that illegal immigration costs American tax payer billions every year, there's tons of links.

The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers (2013)
I absolutely don't trust FAIR:
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Originally Posted by Southern Poverty Law Center
The founder, chief ideologue and long-time funder of FAIR is a racist. Key staff members have ties to white supremacist groups, some are members, and some have spoken at hate group functions. FAIR has accepted more than $1 million from a racist foundation devoted to studies of race and IQ, and to eugenics — the pseudo-science of breeding a better human race that was utterly discredited by the Nazi euthanasia program. It spreads racist conspiracy theories[...]

FAIR is the hub of the American nativist movement, the group that more than any other has contributed to the rancid turn the national immigration discussion has taken. With FAIR fanning the flames of xenophobic intolerance, hate groups, hate crimes and hate speech directed at foreigners and Latinos continue to rise in America.
But it doesn't matter because you're not responding to the substance of my argument - even if this costs the government money, you don't show me any evidence that that's causing tax increases and you don't give me any reason why this is the place we need to be making cuts. (ETA: And you never give a reason why it's not okay to have increased spending if we're giving social services to people who need them.)
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In terms of wages, it doesn't effect the middle class, the "upper" middle class actually benefits. It's the native born "working class" that are impacted. Mass legal immigration has also been shown to impact native born labourers negatively.
Okay, yeah, absolutely. I never said anything about whether I personally benefit from immigration, and I never said it mattered whether I benefit. This is irrelevant because you aren't responding to my arguments saying that, to the extent there is downward pressure on wages, it's because immigration policy isn't liberal enough. I'm giving you a warrant that makes sense, don't try to pretend that I'm just making this debate about me.

You also refuse to provide any evidence that shows wages decreasing - I assume you got that initial number from FAIR as well, so my earlier objections apply there - so here's some evidence which says that, if anything, the opposite happens.

Look first to these two researchers who seem to have a pretty new and improved approach to the whole thing, who conclude that immigration has a small positive effect on average native wages and either no effect or an insubstantial negative effect on unskilled wages (measured as wages of workers with no high-school degree). They spend a decent amount of time (I think sections 2.5 and 5.1, plus the introduction) explaining why the studies you might find supporting your position are flawed.

Then, try the Economic Policy Institute. They say:
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Originally Posted by EPI
In the ongoing debate on immigration, there is broad agreement among academic economists that it has a small but positive impact on the wages of native-born workers overall: although new immigrant workers add to the labor supply, they also consume goods and services, which creates more jobs[...]

The estimated effect of immigration from 1994 to 2007 was to raise the wages of U.S.-born workers, relative to foreign-born workers, by 0.4% (or $3.68 per week)[...]

For workers with less than a high school education, the relative wage effect of immigration was similar to the overall effect. U.S.-born workers with less than a high school education saw a relative 0.3% increase in wages (or $1.58 per week)[...]

Female U.S.-born workers with less than a high school education experienced a relative increase in wages of 1.1% due to immigration.
So, yeah, there is no downward pressure on wages for native-born Americans. This evidence is talking about both legal and illegal immigration - I would agree that there's probably a higher likelihood illegal immigration pushes down wages in the short term, but, once again, further liberalization could solve that problem.
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Don't take this personally, I asked if you were middle class because whenever I encounter someone on the net giving someone else lectures on immigration or diversity, its always some politically correct middle class twat who grew up in a comfortable home environment. I often find that they are people who never got over being bullied in high school, and therefore often bear grudge against their own culture by championing every socialist agenda on the planet no matter who it adversely impacts. If they had to grind through life they would have a completely different outlook.

Bit of a rant there, but it really, really gets my goat.
"Don't take this personally but you're a twat." Thanks man.

This is generally sort of stupid and uncalled for, and it doesn't matter at the point where you aren't responding to my actual arguments. Good try. (I'd still love to hear an explanation for the reasoning in the bolded bit though.)

Last edited by Josef K; 08-26-2015 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 08-26-2015, 03:27 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Why do people think that because you're white and middle class you're not allowed to have opinions about things that may not affect you? Or opinions about racism and minorities? There is such a thing as having a factual, well researched argument not dependent on your background.
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Old 08-26-2015, 05:10 AM   #19 (permalink)
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yeah at the end of the day we are just a speck smaller then a grain of beach sand floating in a giant universe soup bowl and hell there might even be billions of bowls floating in a even bigger bowl ..???? :P

i wish the Human species can stop wasting time and see the bigger picture here




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Old 08-26-2015, 01:27 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Why do people think that because you're white and middle class you're not allowed to have opinions about things that may not affect you? Or opinions about racism and minorities? There is such a thing as having a factual, well researched argument not dependent on your background.
Well I went at it with Roxy over this and basically I got told "You're not black so your opinions don't count", or some variant of that. I let it go in the end because our friendship was starting to come under threat, but it still doesn't seem right to me.

This was, in fairness, in response to my thread about that woman getting arrested and then "hanging herself" in prison a little while back, and I understand feelings may have been a bit raw, but still, I don't see any reason why I, you or any other white or non-black person should not be allowed to express our outrage over the crimes and injustices perpetrated against those who are not our own race... not that I will stop doing that of course.
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