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Old 08-26-2015, 12:51 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Why do people think that because you're white and middle class you're not allowed to have opinions about things that may not affect you? Or opinions about racism and minorities? There is such a thing as having a factual, well researched argument not dependent on your background.
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Well I went at it with Roxy over this and basically I got told "You're not black so your opinions don't count", or some variant of that. I let it go in the end because our friendship was starting to come under threat, but it still doesn't seem right to me.

This was, in fairness, in response to my thread about that woman getting arrested and then "hanging herself" in prison a little while back, and I understand feelings may have been a bit raw, but still, I don't see any reason why I, you or any other white or non-black person should not be allowed to express our outrage over the crimes and injustices perpetrated against those who are not our own race... not that I will stop doing that of course.
I don't know, I think there are definitely situations in which I as a well-off white guy have to take a step back and refrain from discussing certain issues. I don't really think this is one of those situations, but in general I'm pretty sympathetic to arguments like that - and I don't know that it's up to me, when discussing more fraught situations like the policy brutality thing you mention, to decide when I have to bow out of a discussion because I'm offending someone or because I'm coopting a narrative that should belong to poor people/people of color/women/whatever. Basically: if my support for equality or for marginalized groups of people is ever making people who belong to those groups leave a discussion because I'm talking about them in a way that's dehumanizing or offensive, I'm not really supporting equality or those people.

But yeah, I sort of don't think that applies here - whether the studies I cite and the arguments I make are accurate doesn't really depend on my class. But if I'm talking about the experiences of others, I absolutely want to know if the way I'm talking about those experiences is a problem.
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Old 08-26-2015, 01:24 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I don't know, I think there are definitely situations in which I as a well-off white guy have to take a step back and refrain from discussing certain issues. I don't really think this is one of those situations, but in general I'm pretty sympathetic to arguments like that - and I don't know that it's up to me, when discussing more fraught situations like the policy brutality thing you mention, to decide when I have to bow out of a discussion because I'm offending someone or because I'm coopting a narrative that should belong to poor people/people of color/women/whatever. Basically: if my support for equality or for marginalized groups of people is ever making people who belong to those groups leave a discussion because I'm talking about them in a way that's dehumanizing or offensive, I'm not really supporting equality or those people.

But yeah, I sort of don't think that applies here - whether the studies I cite and the arguments I make are accurate doesn't really depend on my class. But if I'm talking about the experiences of others, I absolutely want to know if the way I'm talking about those experiences is a problem.
Well not to derail things, but that's the point. Everything I said about that particular situation was supportive and expressed outrage for what happened. I don't think I ever said anything that might be seen to have caused offence. I was just basically told to shut up and people were not to make these threads any more. Obviously if I were making a joke about it or putting anyone down, then yeah, sure, slap me down. But if I'm supporting your cause then why does it matter that I'm not the same colour? Like, if I started a thread about how Chinese people are treated and then a Chinese member came on saying "You can't say that, you're not Chinese!" How does that make sense?
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Old 08-26-2015, 01:34 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Well not to derail things, but that's the point. Everything I said about that particular situation was supportive and expressed outrage for what happened. I don't think I ever said anything that might be seen to have caused offence. I was just basically told to shut up and people were not to make these threads any more. Obviously if I were making a joke about it or putting anyone down, then yeah, sure, slap me down. But if I'm supporting your cause then why does it matter that I'm not the same colour? Like, if I started a thread about how Chinese people are treated and then a Chinese member came on saying "You can't say that, you're not Chinese!" How does that make sense?
Yeah my bad. I'm not really talking about that specific situation, it was more a response to Vanilla than you, and I don't really disagree with either of you - I'm just saying that I try to be conscious of my role in these conversations.
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Old 08-26-2015, 06:30 PM   #24 (permalink)
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oh boy

so much potential in this thread

or should i even bother?
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Old 08-27-2015, 01:16 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I don't know anything about FAIR other than that they have been called to testify in front of the United States Congress on immigration bills & are cited in many mainstream news sources. However, if its being cited by the Southern Poverty Law Center, its probably complete bull$hit.

"The Southern Poverty Law Center is a highly political far left organization that has written for Communist newspapers in the United States. They have faced lawsuits for delibertly expanding their hate list group to include anyone who opposes immigration." I imagine Trump is next.


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FBI Dumps Southern Poverty Law Center as Hate Crimes Resource Signed by fourteen other conservative and Christian leaders, the letter calls SPLC “a heavily politicized organization producing inaccurate and biased data on ‘hate groups’ – not hate crimes.” It accuses the SPLC of “providing findings that are not consistent with trends found in the FBI statistics.” Where the FBI has found hate crimes and hate groups declining significantly in the past ten years, SPLC claims hate groups have increased 67.3% since 2000.
I am the furthest thing from an evangelical Christian, but these guys do a good job on the SPLC.



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But it doesn't matter because you're not responding to the substance of my argument - even if this costs the government money, you don't show me any evidence that that's causing tax increases and you don't give me any reason why this is the place we need to be making cuts. (ETA: And you never give a reason why it's not okay to have increased spending if we're giving social services to people who need them.)
Oh I am sorry, maybe it was because I was responding in part, to this little ideological ditty below, "Americans" lol.

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Lots of things are illegal but that doesn't make them all wrong. If "Americans" deserve access to certain services, don't all people deserve access to those services?
In case you were to thick to see the numbers that I had laid out, here are some more sources, there are only a million of them on the net, which is quite an achievement considering that liberals dominate the media & Universities.

Do the Math: How Illegal Immigration Is Hurting Domestic Welfare | The Odyssey

Illegal Immigrants' Cost to Government Studied (washingtonpost.com)

Senate immigration bill leaves hidden $400 billion cost for taxpayers | The Daily Caller

Illegal Immigration Costs California $10.5 Billion Annually

Legal and Illegal Immigrants Putting Strain on Welfare System - Katie Pavlich



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Originally Posted by Josef K View Post
You also refuse to provide any evidence that shows wages decreasing - I assume you got that initial number from FAIR as well, so my earlier objections apply there - so here's some evidence which says that, if anything, the opposite happens.
I didn't refuse to provide evidence, I was merely a passing ship in the night, but since you've decided to make a big deal about it, here's what it is doing to African Americans. I can provide more if you like, I can also give you personal testimony of what it's done to unskilled workers, because unlike you, I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth!

Black Americans: The True Casualties of Amnesty | National Review Online

Quote:
Harvard professor George Borjas estimated that high immigration rates from 1980 to 2000 resulted in a 7.4 percent wage reduction for lower-skilled American workers…. The Center for Immigration Studies issued a study based on Census data showing that “since 2000 all of the net gain in the number of working-age (16 to 65) people holding a job has gone to immigrants.”… If mass immigration is so good for the economy, why then — during this long sustained period of record immigration into the U.S. — are incomes falling and a record number of Americans not working?

Read more at: Black Americans: The True Casualties of Amnesty | National Review Online
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"Don't take this personally but you're a twat." Thanks man.
Well that's not very nice, I wasn't necessarily assuming you are one, but i can now see that you are.

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Don't take this personally, I asked if you were middle class because whenever I encounter someone on the net giving someone else lectures on immigration or diversity, its always some politically correct middle class twat who grew up in a comfortable home environment. I often find that they are people who never got over being bullied in high school, and therefore often bear grudge against their own culture by championing every socialist agenda on the planet no matter who it adversely impacts. If they had to grind through life they would have a completely different outlook.

Bit of a rant there, but it really, really gets my goat.
I stand by this because I fought against your ilk when I was in left wing parties for yeeeaarrrrsss. i fought for poor whites, First Nations & blacks, because I know what the grind of poverty is like, you do it because you were bullied in high school and hold animosity to your own culture, your all about political ideology no matter who it hurts. Middle class liberals have completely hijacked working class parties in the west with their own agenda, you ruined the Labour Party in the UK.
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Old 08-27-2015, 06:43 AM   #26 (permalink)
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He's still in high school.
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Old 08-27-2015, 06:50 AM   #27 (permalink)
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your all about political ideology no matter who it hurts. Middle class liberals have completely hijacked working class parties in the west with their own agenda
Where I am it tends to be mainly upper middle class white liberals, usually between the ages of 15 to 25.
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Old 08-27-2015, 09:49 AM   #28 (permalink)
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He's still in high school.
He's still in high school??? Oh maaaaannnnn I should have never of come into the political forums on MB, I forgot the age demographic is probably completely different than in regular political forums.

I no longer associate myself with the left, (registered independent) but left wing parties are no longer run by trade unionists & working class folk, but rather lawyers from well to do backgrounds with cultural agendas of their own.

For a long time now the native born working class in the west has been having deep concerns about the rate of both legal & illegal immigration, and the adverse economic (as well as cultural) impact it may have.

the left's refusal to address those issues has produced a growing populist right wing backlash,

UKIP in the United Kingdom
the National Front in France
Geert Wilders Netherlands
Donald Trump (USA) (the list goes on & on)

If middle class socialists would stop giving the finger to the working class constituents there supposed to represent, than I'm pretty sure the above parties would disappear.
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:34 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody View Post
I don't know anything about FAIR other than that they have been called to testify in front of the United States Congress on immigration bills & are cited in many mainstream news sources. However, if its being cited by the Southern Poverty Law Center, its probably complete bull$hit.

"The Southern Poverty Law Center is a highly political far left organization that has written for Communist newspapers in the United States. They have faced lawsuits for delibertly expanding their hate list group to include anyone who opposes immigration." I imagine Trump is next.

I am the furthest thing from an evangelical Christian, but these guys do a good job on the SPLC.
I mean it doesn't really matter that they're cited in the mainstream press if they take money from neo-Nazis, and maybe it's no coincidence that the groups who are virulently opposed to immigration tend to be racist hate groups. But since I'm giving you independent reasons why the evidence you get from FAIR is wrong, it doesn't really matter whether either they or the SPLC are a good source.
Quote:
Oh I am sorry, maybe it was because I was responding in part, to this little ideological ditty below, "Americans" lol.
So... still no response. Cool.
I question some of these too - Townhall and the Daily Caller are very ideological publications, about.com isn't really very serious, The Odyssey says it's crowdsourced journalism (so this is just a random person talking) and that article only cites the same FAIR report anyway, and as for that WaPo piece, this is the first paragraph:
Quote:
A report that found that illegal immigrants in the United States cost the federal government more than $10 billion a year -- a sum it estimated would almost triple if they were given amnesty -- has drawn criticism from immigration advocacy groups[...]

"The costs of the children of immigrants are accounted for [in the report], but not their contributions to the economy as workers and taxpayers."
So this isn't just "I have evidence and you evidence," because your evidence has serious methodological problems.

Anyway, the solution, once again, is further liberalization. Look to this report, which says that if we had a better path to citizenship, our economy would benefit in a huge number of ways - debt would decrease, additional spending would create jobs, wages go up, a bunch more. The links to some actual studies are in there as well.
Quote:
I didn't refuse to provide evidence, I was merely a passing ship in the night, but since you've decided to make a big deal about it, here's what it is doing to African Americans. I can provide more if you like, I can also give you personal testimony of what it's done to unskilled workers, because unlike you, I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth!

Black Americans: The True Casualties of Amnesty | National Review Online
That first study I linked says that other studies which conclude the other way don't take a holistic enough view of the economy. I can check to see whether it mentions your study by name, but again, your methodology is flawed regardless. I don't mean to discount your personal experiences, but if we're trying to figure out whether there's a net decrease in wages, the fact that you've seen people lose jobs is a little less important.
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I stand by this because I fought against your ilk when I was in left wing parties for yeeeaarrrrsss. i fought for poor whites, First Nations & blacks, because I know what the grind of poverty is like, you do it because you were bullied in high school and hold animosity to your own culture, your all about political ideology no matter who it hurts. Middle class liberals have completely hijacked working class parties in the west with their own agenda, you ruined the Labour Party in the UK.
Okay, good for you. You sound like a cool person, and I mean that sincerely. I don't really understand "animosity to my own culture"? Maybe I just have beliefs that are different from yours.

So, in sum, you give two reasons why immigration is bad. First is increased government spending. I tell you that even if this is true:

1. We ought to be spending money on social services anyway
2. This isn't causing tax increases
3. This isn't the place where we should be making cuts

Second is depressed wages. I tell you that even if this is true:

1. This is a short term problem
2. A lot more people are getting jobs, which is good

I also tell you that it's not true and that the economic consensus, when looking at all sectors of the economy, is that native workers - even uneducated native workers - benefit.

But finally, you completely ignore the argument I keep making that further liberalization solves both of these problems by allowing undocumented immigrants to fully participate in the economy, increasing spending and creating jobs, and by keeping employers from threatening undocumented immigrants and getting away with wage theft. The solution isn't "Build a wall," it's "Treat people better when they're here."
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Old 08-27-2015, 09:22 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I mean it doesn't really matter that they're cited in the mainstream press if they take money from neo-Nazis, and maybe it's no coincidence that the groups who are virulently opposed to immigration tend to be racist hate groups. But since I'm giving you independent reasons why the evidence you get from FAIR is wrong, it doesn't really matter whether either they or the SPLC are a good source.

So... still no response. Cool.

I question some of these too - Townhall and the Daily Caller are very ideological publications, about.com isn't really very serious, The Odyssey says it's crowdsourced journalism (so this is just a random person talking) and that article only cites the same FAIR report anyway, and as for that WaPo piece, this is the first paragraph:

So this isn't just "I have evidence and you evidence," because your evidence has serious methodological problems.

Anyway, the solution, once again, is further liberalization. Look to this report, which says that if we had a better path to citizenship, our economy would benefit in a huge number of ways - debt would decrease, additional spending would create jobs, wages go up, a bunch more. The links to some actual studies are in there as well.

That first study I linked says that other studies which conclude the other way don't take a holistic enough view of the economy. I can check to see whether it mentions your study by name, but again, your methodology is flawed regardless. I don't mean to discount your personal experiences, but if we're trying to figure out whether there's a net decrease in wages, the fact that you've seen people lose jobs is a little less important.

Okay, good for you. You sound like a cool person, and I mean that sincerely. I don't really understand "animosity to my own culture"? Maybe I just have beliefs that are different from yours.

So, in sum, you give two reasons why immigration is bad. First is increased government spending. I tell you that even if this is true:

1. We ought to be spending money on social services anyway
2. This isn't causing tax increases
3. This isn't the place where we should be making cuts

Second is depressed wages. I tell you that even if this is true:

1. This is a short term problem
2. A lot more people are getting jobs, which is good

I also tell you that it's not true and that the economic consensus, when looking at all sectors of the economy, is that native workers - even uneducated native workers - benefit.

But finally, you completely ignore the argument I keep making that further liberalization solves both of these problems by allowing undocumented immigrants to fully participate in the economy, increasing spending and creating jobs, and by keeping employers from threatening undocumented immigrants and getting away with wage theft. The solution isn't "Build a wall," it's "Treat people better when they're here."
First off apologies, I had no idea you were still in high school, I'm actually severely embarrassed for responding, I'm not going to beat up on a teenager, Cudos on you for citing sources at your age, well done!!!

Yes very intelligent and sophisticated for your age group.

The sources I have provided are valid and legitimate. You might not like the Washington Post ,but they are a reliable source. In today's world, it is almost impossible not to find some bias in a primary or secondary source, particularly with Universities and doctorates sadly.

Even if you don't trust (FAIR), they could be sued for libel & discredited if they chose to misrepresent their data without being able to back it up.

...and like I said before, I don't know anything about them or anti immigration groups in general, but I do know the Southern Poverty Law Center is a pretty reprehensible organization that have several lawsuits against them for a reason, please don't cite them as a source in the future.

As for wages, there are plenty of studies citing immigrations negative impact on workers. This article is from Paul Krugman the number 1 liberal economist in the country where he sights three different studies on the effects of immigration and wages he writes.

Quote:
My second negative point is that immigration reduces the wages of domestic workers who compete with immigrants. That’s just supply and demand: we’re talking about large increases in the number of low-skill workers relative to other inputs into production, so it’s inevitable that this means a fall in wages. Mr. Borjas and Mr. Katz have to go through a lot of number-crunching to turn that general proposition into specific estimates of the wage impact, but the general point seems impossible to deny.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/200...igration/?_r=0

Plus here is another article on the effects immigration has on African Americans if the first one did not convince you.

Effects of Immigration on African-American Employment and Incarceration

Finally before I go I would like to apologize for the whole "middle class twat" comments it was probably uncalled for, and yes, for the first time in on music banter I was probably being the irrational dickhead.

I was bullied somewhat in high school to, but in order for me to explain my comment I would probably have to write a paragraph long backstory on my political past and the people who I encountered that were on the far left of the spectrum, on issues like immigration & environmentalism, and the endless confrontational debates that ensued.
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