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Old 06-11-2016, 10:25 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I have an addiional consideration that isn't given a lot of time in mainstream academic music: timbre theory. The way different people hit notes with their instruments - the components of the attack, sustain, decay. Thing that we seldom have symbols for in music theory. This reddit thread from the music theory subreddit has some resources:

https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory...ory_of_timbre/

In pop music, timbre is chiefly vocal and sample-based (given the direction of electronica). But samples, too, can be insightful if used right. I always thought John Cage was on the fringe, but I still like to take parts of his philosophy:

Wonderful ideas - thank you for sharing them! I've copies of Silence (the 50th Anniversary ed.), For the Birds, and Empty Words which reveal much of Cage's philosophy and I enjoy them immensely. But I had not yet seen Écoute (1992) - the documentary film from which this interview is taken.

I recall Eno expressing similar ideas many years later with the Long Now Foundation. The unreleased Bell Studies for the Clock of the Long Now is one of my favorite recordings.

Thanks again!
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Old 06-12-2016, 01:13 AM   #42 (permalink)
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All music bashing is elitism really, innit. It's the ego telling itself it's cultured or discerning or intelligent or such like. It's a phantom lying to itself. Haha.

And we all fall for it. Sometimes I hear The Spice Girls on the radio and I think "what awful music" when really it's just music I dislike. Stupid thoughts!
I kind of disagree with that, I think there are simple manufactured musical compositions and then more complex interesting ones.

For example, the talent that went into composing and creating Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven is much greater than the Spice Girl's Wannabe.

Though there has been this sort of trend since western civilizations abandonment of high culture for consumer culture.

For instance, it takes more talent to produce Mozart's 9th symphony than say something by John Coltrane, and yet I would argue that Coltrane's albums are more sophisticated than, Led Zeppelin, and of course Zeppelin is much more sophisticated than Green Day, likewise Curtis Mayfield over 2PAC.

The democratization of music has brought us punk rock and rap, which has produced some good music, but it is both technically, and it's composition, inferior to the artists of the 70's listed above.

I think the key is technology. The more technology makes music easier to make, the more that non talent a$$holes are able to enter into the game. But in the end its all good, that's just the way human evolution roles.

I myself would rather listen to 2Pac than Mozart.
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Old 06-12-2016, 01:44 AM   #43 (permalink)
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the talent that went into composing and creating Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven is much greater than the Spice Girl's Wannabe.
Depends on how you define "talent". If talent means having a rare skill developing extraordinarily memorable pop hook that still bounces around my brain after a brief mention even after years without actually hearing the song probably requires more of that rare skill talent than putting together a somewhat stale and generic formulaic crescendo style rock anthem. Stairway could be taught. Stairway had to be stilted up by the rest of LedZep. Wannabe is bigger than the band, stands alone, needs no context, and taps into a very pure form of memorable pleasure.
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Old 06-12-2016, 01:49 AM   #44 (permalink)
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it takes more talent to produce Mozart's 9th symphony than say something by John Coltrane
You dug quite a hole not specifying which Coltrane you're on about but Coltrane does not take a back seat to any musician, past or future.
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Old 06-12-2016, 02:19 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Depends on how you define "talent". If talent means having a rare skill developing extraordinarily memorable pop hook that still bounces around my brain after a brief mention even after years without actually hearing the song probably requires more of that rare skill talent than putting together a somewhat stale and generic formulaic crescendo style rock anthem. Stairway could be taught. Stairway had to be stilted up by the rest of LedZep. Wannabe is bigger than the band, stands alone, needs no context, and taps into a very pure form of memorable pleasure.
I suppose, if you want to define talent as a memorable pop hook. I cannot deny that people went out in droves to purchase the Wannabe single, though they were mostly 14 year old girls.

I would argue that Led Zeppelin's fanbase is far more extensive and articulate, but if you view the song as a simple generic formulaic rock anthem so be it. However as a musician I can tell you that Stairway to Heaven took me months to master, while I could probably master Wannabe within a day.

As for John Coltrane, classical music in general tends to be highly sophisticated in its compositions, though confess I don't have much respect for jazz, its just a lot of improvisation around a musical key.

Of course according to your logic on the Spice Girls, the Sex Pistols $hits all over John Coltrane talent wise...and that I can agree with
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Old 06-12-2016, 05:24 AM   #46 (permalink)
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My "logic" doesn't lead to any such conclusion.

Congratulations on mastering stairway!

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likewise Curtis Mayfield over 2PAC.
Are you aware of the what goes into the production side of a hip hop album?

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I think the key is technology. The more technology makes music easier to make, the more that non talent a$$holes are able to enter into the game. But in the end its all good, that's just the way human evolution roles.
If more people have access to this technology and you create the one in a million it that people actually want to hear I guess you got that rare something special.
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Old 06-12-2016, 11:31 AM   #47 (permalink)
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My "logic" doesn't lead to any such conclusion.

Congratulations on mastering stairway!



Are you aware of the what goes into the production side of a hip hop album?


If more people have access to this technology and you create the one in a million it that people actually want to hear I guess you got that rare something special.
Hip hop production yes, but the technical talent that goes into creating a soul and funk band like Curtis Mayfield or James Brown pales in comparison.

As for the technology, I'm not complaining about it, I just think it's man's inevitable march of evolution. Creative destruction as you'd have it.

I think we'll eventually hit the technological stage where every instrument in Garage Band sounds authentic, and that will most likely reign in a musical renaissance.

Thanks on the Stairway, a lot of work on that one. To be honest, I still have to put in the time to master end of the solo, it's more being able to play it in it's proper timing than anything else, and in an apartment it's hard to crank up the backing track.
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Old 06-12-2016, 11:51 AM   #48 (permalink)
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I think you're using a narrow scope of "technical talent". Being responsible for a single instrument and having roles in a band is one thing and one kind of technical talent.

Being able to compose and produce an arrangement for several instruments (even if they're samples) is a whole 'nother technique.
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Old 06-12-2016, 12:03 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Yeah, there's a lot of hella technically adept music that sucks horse cock. I'll take a three chord folk or punk band or some harsh noise over whatever Dreamtheater is spewing any time of the day.
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Old 06-12-2016, 12:15 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I think you're using a narrow scope of "technical talent". Being responsible for a single instrument and having roles in a band is one thing and one kind of technical talent.

Being able to compose and produce an arrangement for several instruments (even if they're samples) is a whole 'nother technique.
Yes if your a composer of a classical orchestra or brass band that takes "a high degree of talent" as you have to virtually know how to play and tune every instrument, arrange them when they come in, and know the timing and notes of every musical key.

I would however argue that most hip hop and electronic artists don't know a lot about musical theory, they are sampling and matching a beat while often not knowing what musical key it is in, and yes it does take a degree of talent, but not that of playing in a band whether it be rock, soul, funk, or jazz. You have to remember even as the rhythm section in a band you have to be able to cut it. If you want to be able to play at the highest level you have to be damn good!

I consider myself a fairly good bass player, but if I tried out for Led Zeppelin tomorrow, the guys in the band would probably laugh in my face. Unless your trying out for a punk band you have to be extremely good!

I'm a fan of both hip hop, electronic music and punk so I'm not going to slag of the genres, but push button dj's like Paul Oakenfold who match beats to the arpeggio in their synth, can only dream of having 1/10th of the talent than James Brown's backing band, but that's just technology, and the democratization on music, inevitable.
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