Lisnaholic

^ So this guy is saying that Scottish independence isn't gonna happen any day soon. Well, I'm in favour of us sticking together; I would just hate to see the UK pulled apart after so many centuries of (albeit lopsided) unity.

So far I've answered Roxy's "Yay or Nay?" question about three times; a tentative yay, a nervous nay and after the referendum, a very pessimistic yay.
Now I'd like to answer the question again, this time with a proud and optimistic YAY!, such has been the impact of watching the documentary below, "Brexit The Movie." Made several months before the referendum, it explains in simple terms, and then demolishes, the trade theory behind the single market and re-affirms my initial belief that the EU is a cumbersome, self-promoting money-guzzling monster. So my latest answer is, "We're out at last! Well done Britain!"

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"Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

Lilja

I guess my question is, why hasn't the UK left already? You are not "out at last", and haven't even started truly cutting the cords. The person who made that film showed every advantage of leaving the EU, such as knowing who your representatives are (and honestly, most people probably don't know who their local representatives are...much less the EU's. That showing the pictures bit that they do in the film has been repeated time and time again in many different countries with different political representatives...most just really don't care I think. Admittedly, I have met a few people who are reps for Sweden in the EU and it is a pretty sweet job. But really, any type of political job is usually overpayed and full of nice kickbacks which makes one regret not working in politics). The film shows nothing about what could happen if you voted "leave" (which most did. And the people who pushed leave pretty much left all acountability when it went to hell on the British economy). I have to admit, the fish market scene did seem a bit fishy though . What kind of fish market opens so late in the day? All that was left would have been the crap fish by the time the film guys showed up. And do you honestly think that the UK could keep pushing out so much fish withought some kind of regulation? Seems almost like overfishing which just ends up in waste..but that is just my opinion.

Ok. So, you vote out of the EU. So leave it already. I am tired of hearing about the "negotiations"...you cannot expect to get the same type of trading deals, breaks, etc. if you are not in it can you? And most likely, in order to have certain trade deals with the EU and the like, you will have to accept alot of things you will not like, just as Switzerland has to in regards to immigration, giving money to the EU and not having any representation or say in it at all, making products that still correspond to the EUs regulations etc. (this was not taken up in the Brexit movie in the half I did not watch was it? )

It just seems to me that, in the end, what will happen is that (after you finally cut that cord), the UK will just create a smaller scale version of the great EU machine. People still will not know who their representatives are, it will be full of nonsense regulations and trade deals based upon tradeoffs. The UK will have to accept things that they will not want to in order to get access to certain markets and this might include such things as higher immigration (which was a major issue for the whole Brexit leave party). Before this whole Brexit, I doubt most people cared about the EU. As long as they have their job, can put bread on the table, and have a decent life. The only ones who probably cared (realistically) were the bureacrats whose deals did not go through due to some regulation blocking it. And now there are many people who are loosing their jobs because companies are moving out of the UK or may have to deal with the fact that things may be a bit harder in the UK or cost more and it seems that the EU is still being blamed for this? Or is it just me?

I am just glad Pokemon Go came out. Gives the world something fun to focus on

rostasi

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Lisnaholic

@ rostasi: Yes, I read about that depressing news too, and have feared that Brexit could cause a recession. Pre-referendum, almost everybody guessed there would be a heavy price to pay for Brexit.

These days, I feel that as Brexit is happening anyway, I'd rather look for the benefits of it, especially as in financial markets they say that economies can talk themselves into recession; all those gloomy predictions can be self realizing. So I'm putting on a brave face in case some big investor dips into this thread before commiting to a business deal with the UK.

If we are lucky, these bad figures could just be the short, sharp, expected downturn in response to the "uncertainty" that everyone agrees is particulary damaging. Perhaps, as the worst predictions fail to materialize, and more people watch "Brexit, The Movie", confidence in, and the economy of, the UK will bounce back - or even exceed previous levels.

@Lilja: Thanks for taking the trouble to post your responses to that documentary; I'm interested in your opinions because you really understand what the EU is about.

^ Yes, most people wish that "out" just meant "out", but unfortunately it's a very complicated business which'll take years. (Our entry took 7 years and, rather at random, I read that a non-EU trade agreement between just two countries took 10 years to complete.) So we have to resign ourselves to watching a snail race. But some things have changed already; there was some EU meeting the other day from which the Brits were excluded.

Yes, perhaps the bit with the photos in the street was rather laboured, but there is a valid point; that EU rule-makers are all but annonymous.

^ I agree, politicians look after themselves first, usually at the tax-payers expense; surely that is all the more reason to escape from the over-staffed bureaucratic maze that is the EU.
^ I didn't notice that about the time of day of the fish market! Maybe I'll re-watch it. I don't suppose the Brits are any different from any other fishermen, i.e. overfish if you can until someone stops you. My understanding is that the EU have regulated overfishing (good thing) but have also allowed other countries to fish in what were traditionally British territorial waters (not so good for the UK).
^ Yes, me too Lilja! in fact, I'm going to cut short this post, though I would just like to
i) thank you for your patience and interest in what the Brits are doing to the EU, and
ii) correct you on one point; that ordinary people in England have been very aware/worried about the EU for decades; every new development (Maastricht, the euro, the schegen area) has been viewed with suspicion, not just in parliament, but in the pubs too!

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"Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

Lilja

@Lisnaholic, Wouldn't is just have been easier to just dissolve the House of Lords? Why keep them if the EU's anonominity seems like such a threat to the average person? Isn't getting into the House of Lords a smaller scale version of getting into the EU ruling body? Just saying..

Lilja

Until two years after the invoking of Art. 50, the UK is still a complete part of the EU. the only limitation is that it (logically) is asked to leave the room when questions concerning the EU position in the negotiation of the Brexit is underway.

Lisnaholic

^ Thanks for clarification!

^ HaHa! Yes, it's hard to justify the existence of the House of Lords, but we are lovers of tradition in Britain and because the H of L has been around for about 450 years, I think most people would feel guilty about abolishing it. It's like throwing out your family heirlooms! The good news is that it has very limited powers, the bad news is that it currently has 800 members. According to wiki: "The House of Lords is the only upper house of any bicameral parliament to be larger than its respective lower house."

I finally did a little research about Sweden, and I see that like the UK you are hanging on to your own currency. That's a wise decision imo, but shows some ambivalence in Sweden towards the EU. Perhaps you're not so different from us after all!

PS Do you have a pocketful of both euros and krona? How complicated is it to be using two currencies simultaneously?

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"Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

Lilja

I don't know if it is neccesarily ambivalence towards the EU. The Swedish krona has always been a strong currency in itself. When it was time to vote for Sweden to join the Euro, the people voted no. I think we stayed in more of a "wait and see" position to see if we would like to join (although we are not technically exempt from joining, we don't meet the neccesary conditions to join it and I doubt we would ever meet them until there is a mass public approval for wanting to join). Then Greece and Italy started to plummet and I think that, as Sweden was one of the few countries that had a stable economy when the rest of Europe was in a recession, we just decided to stay with our krona.

I don't keep a pocket of euros and krona. Not many places take the Euro in Sweden (except mainly in the tourist areas...there you probably might find a few places that accept the Euro..but there is no requirement to accept the Euro here since we have our own currency). The only time I might end up in that kind of situation is when I go on the boats to Finland.

Now that most people are using the Swish app, we really are becoming a cashless society in Sweden. You just "swish" the money to your friend with your phone or to a store instead of giving them hard cash. The goal is that, in a few years, we will become completely cashless (which is a shame since they just printed some nice new banknotes), the first in the world.

Lilja

BTW, I should also note that (since this is a music website) one of the main people who is pushing for Sweden to go cash free is Björn Ulvaeus, one of the founding members of Abba. Just a bit of trivia for you

Cuthbert

I started watching the documentary Lisna posted then got distracted about twenty minutes in when they were showing the shopping centre for EU workers. I voted Remain for a few reasons but it did seem to be a bit of an eye opener.