Political Discussions for "Adults"

Mindfulness · 08-04-2018, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Thats not my name!

i hope you have a wonderful night. idk what to type fam.

Anteater · 08-04-2018, 06:15 PM

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Originally Posted by elphenor

then Mao's marxism in China was much more a story of a reaction to imperialism

You could argue he had good intentions but the end result was still awful.

I'm personally not for or against a Marxist system. But societies are made up of individuals, and individual wants and needs will always push society into a more capitalistic direction unless a "power" (government, military, law enforcement, etc.) decides to stomp them out. The question would be how individuals would be punished for going against the grain in any Marxist scenario, because there are plenty of possibilities.

Oriphiel · 08-04-2018, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

the end result is nobody scoffs at China anymore on the global market

not saying Mao was justified, no such thing as a good dictator or a good dictatorship

it's just worth considering prior to Mao people in China were already starving if they didn't get murdered by the Japanese, capitalism never did them any favors

capitalism benefits those at the top whether that's people or nations

China has been Mercantilist throughout most of its history, with much of that history spent as one of the dominant nations of the world. The White Lotus rebelllion (which killed almost as many people as the combined fatalities of WWII) that started the Ming dynasty decimated the population, and the extreme conservative policies and de-emphasis on international trade shifted China away from Mercantilism, and set them behind the rest of the world, leading to bullying from other world powers (esp. Britain).

Japan, being much more open to modernization and Mercantilism in the post Tokugawa years, dealt some heavy blows to China early on in the occupation, but China had been catching up in the post Qing years as a Republic, and ultimately put up more of a fight than Japan expected, esp. when the warlord/generals and the Communists teamed up to mount an extensive defense.

When Mao pushed the Republic to Taiwan, he destroyed China's infrastructure and economy (not to mention culture with the Great Leap Forward), leading to a drastic decline in the average quality of life compared to the Republic years, and even the late Qing.

China only returned to its position as a proper world power when Mao died, and subsequent leaders turned the nation back to Mercantilism.

China has had some extreme highs and lows, the highs usually coinciding with periods of open trade and an emphasis on Capitalism (Han and Tang dynasties being the prime examples), and the lows coinciding with conservative policies, a lack of free trade, and foreign occupation (Early Marxist years and the Yuan dynasty are examples of this, and the Jin following the Three Kingdoms Era).

Sorry if there are any errors. I'm typing this off the top of my head on my phone.

Oriphiel · 08-04-2018, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

Mao industrialized China without which it could not compete

and you're right China had periods of great power

Was already being industrialized during the Republic period. Like I said, similar to how Japan modernized in the Meiji Restoration, China was heading in the same direction, only they had less of a headstart since the Republic started around 1912 iirc, while the Meiji was late 1800s (again, off the top of my head and on my phone).

Most Sino historians agree that Mao set China back considerably. Only the increasingly Capitalist policies following his death brought China back to where it was.

The "periods of great power" all coincide with Mercantilist policies and free trade. Saying that Mao/Communism put China ahead is very ignorant of Chinese history.

DwnWthVwls · 08-05-2018, 08:42 AM

Elph is still thinking about a really clever one sentence retort.

Mindfulness · 08-05-2018, 04:35 PM

from face the nation today

Oriphiel · 08-05-2018, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I won't say ignorant, but very curious why you would ignore the rampant exploitation from the colonial powers following the Open Door Policy

the humiliation they suffered lead them to retaliate with more isolationist policy

it was only when China had put itself in a favorable position (with very heavy central planning that still continues) that Capitalist reforms could pay off

I didn't ignore it. I actually mentioned it. Kinda like how I mentioned that it was the isolationism and deemphasis on trade and science during the Ming (an abandonment of Mercantilism) that lead to China falling behind the rest of the world, and thus being bullied by European powers during the Qing.

I've already gone over this and provided examples of how turning away from Marcantilism and free trade has always ****ed China over historically.

Fun fact: The vast majority of the steel that Mao famously forced farmers to make in lieu of planting crops ended up being too flawed for actual use. The Mao years may seem like a productive time on the surface level, but pretty much every "accomplishment" of his was actually a massive failure with a PR propaganda spin.

Communist China had a fraction of the relative power and influence it had during the Qin, Han, Tang, etc., and was already modernizing during the pre-Communist Republic years. If anything, most historians agree that Mao actually slowed progress down through his constant blunders and massive wasting of resources.

But hey, maybe the books I read in college were biased. It happens. If you have any books with dissenting opinions that you think might change my mind, I'd be happy to check them out. I love learning more about Chinese history.

Oriphiel · 08-05-2018, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

his greater legacy is in the restructuring of China, I don't think it's a given that China's modernization would be similar without him, or that they'd have the same place in the world

Why not? The Republic loyalists that fled to Taiwan turned it into an economic powerhouse with a high quality of life that was only eventually eclipsed by the mainland due to its tiny size and population. In the end, I think Sun Yat Sen's ideas and legacy were more pivotal in modernizing China, even if the Republic he led technically didn't survive. To this day, even the die hard Marxists have tremendous respect for him and his influence, maybe even more so than Mao.

DwnWthVwls · 08-06-2018, 04:08 AM

I'm learning. Keep arguing.

The Batlord · 08-06-2018, 05:44 PM

Curious if elph will come anywhere close to admitting he doesn't really know what he's talking about.

08-05-2018, 04:35 PM	#1006 (permalink)
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