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Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2069832)

I see that you have no basic argument or you would put it forward

Bottom line is you guys think that I'm saying is heartless

I think what you're saying is brainless

What you're saying is heartless cause you clearly don't care about how labor affects the people actually performing labor. You're just trying to sound like the most logical guy in the room and care nothing for the actual IRL affects of what you're saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug McClasky (Post 2069833)

The whole point is that the casually inhumane way that workers are treated is analogous to the casually inhumane way that "sluts" are treated in this society where it's just normal for workers to be abused by companies and society and for women to be abused by men and society.

And yeah your example was obscure, because the way that money interacts with labor is ****ing obscure. It's a way to apply some weird ass mathematical calculation to people banging hammers and sewing. It's a replacement for bartering that's I guess meant to account for being able to gather something called "wealth". As a basic principle it does not makes sense. And trying to divorce it as much as possible from labor to make a point makes it more obscure and that was your intention.

it makes perfect sense actually... You pay as much for a service as it is worth to you, which is based on part on the labor pool offering the service

I've yet to hear a alternative way of determining pay from any of you that makes more sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 2069834)

And what exactly am I supposed to be saying because all I did was point out how you're approaching the conversation differently from everyone else in the discussion.

wow you must be some sort of genius to point that out. And here i thought we were arguing based on the same principles. Silly me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2069837)

wow you must be some sort of genius to ping that out. And here i thought we were arguing based on the same principles. Silly me.

Please answer my question

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug McClasky (Post 2069835)

don't play Dr phil with me cause you've always been **** at that particular game

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 2069838)

Please answer my question

not

"what exactly an I supposed to be saying"

I'm always arguing with multiple people at once and you want me to tell you what to say on top of it

Say something of interest

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2069841)

"what exactly an I supposed to be saying"

I'm always arguing with multiple people at once and you want me to tell you what to say on top of it

Say something of interest

Always dodging my questions when you can't support your points smh

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2069836)

I'm not saying there's a moral alternative. If you want a giant log moved out of a piece of land you think is choice and I'm a big strong dude and you're not, well maybe you have a fur I need to keep warm and I'll move that log for that fur.

In that world I helped you, you helped me, and we're both happier for it. Not bad I guess?

In a capitalist world you might have had money to move that log and I would have moved it for you. Why did you have that money? I guess because of shady deal X, but lets forget about shady deal X because we always forget about shady deal X even if shady deal X is exactly why I need money cause your parents made shady deal X possible and my parents were subservient to your parents when they could have been equal if it wasn't for shady deal Y AND LET'S NOT EVEN GET INTO SHADY DEAL Y cause that's like a hundred years of he said she said **** and nobody has the time of day for that **** even though there's like a whole alphabet of shady deals to get into that history has conveniently forgotten in a way that is legally important.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 2069842)

which is less than the actual value of the labor

you can find the actual value by looking at Value Added

The actual value if labor has no concrete monetary value

That all depends on things like competition

Like if you make a chair, obviously that labor has value
But if someone else floods the market with chairs when you are trying to sell it, the dollar value if your labor will go down. Same applies to competition from other laborers.