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Old 10-27-2017, 06:58 AM   #21 (permalink)
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What if our human inability to comprehend the idea of there being no starting point is the real problem? What if the universe turns out to just always have been here, with no starting point. Just expanding and contracting infinitely, generating new energy out of nowhere before total heat death happens. Not that I believe that, it's just to say that maybe our assumption that there had to be a point of creation is just a result of our human minds being bent out of shape when trying to imagine the alternative.

I don't know, I just kind of like playing with that thought: That we might be way off because we're too stupid to comprehend infinity with no starting point. Who says humans would ever even be able to comprehend whatever the truth is?
I tend to agree with you that we're not intelligent enough to comprehend the universe completely yet. Maybe in another billion years or so we'll have evolved far enough Infinity is an incredible concept to play with. It's one reason I like math so much.
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:02 AM   #22 (permalink)
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David Foster Wallace pointed out a funny irony about our faith in scientific method - really just as a playful bit of philosophizing.

I can't find the quote in my books and didn't get any search results online, so I'm going to have to try and explain it.

Basically, he posited that we only know that the scientific method works because the very same method seems to confirm that it does. We prove our thesis by using the same very same thesis to prove itself.

EDIT: The real, not poorly formulated quote must have been from either of these two books...

Fate, Time and Language: And Essay on Free Will
or
Everything and More: A Compact History of Infinity <---- Pet Sounds, I just saw your last comment. You should read this!
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:15 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I think that is by far the most likely scenario.
Me too actually, except for the energy out of nowhere part.
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There's probably some reasonable middle ground between Leave It to Beaver and being forced to suck your step-father's dick in the basement after your mom goes to work.
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:17 AM   #24 (permalink)
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From a scientific standpoint it wouldn't be reasonable. I'm reasonably confident it's all psychological mumbo jumbo that most are too arrogant and unimaginative to think might apply to them, but I'd still never say I know.
What is something you do know?
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There's probably some reasonable middle ground between Leave It to Beaver and being forced to suck your step-father's dick in the basement after your mom goes to work.
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:51 AM   #25 (permalink)
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From a scientific standpoint it wouldn't be reasonable. I'm reasonably confident it's all psychological mumbo jumbo that most are too arrogant and unimaginative to think might apply to them, but I'd still never say I know.
All I can say is you really have to change the word "know" to "believe". In reality there's very little we can actually say we know, without being able to point to some empirical evidence. You can say "I know there's no such thing as ghosts", but can you prove it? All you can really say there is "I believe there's no such thing as ghosts", which is good enough for me. I can't say "I know there's no God, or that there is", but I can believe one or the other.
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:28 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Outside the laws of physics, God might not need to be created.
it's possible sure it just becomes silly when prefaced with "everything must have a cause" as some kind of argument
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:31 AM   #27 (permalink)
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it's possible sure it just becomes silly when prefaced with "everything must have a cause" as some kind of argument
Elph don't obey no laws, not even your capitalist laws of physics!
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:34 AM   #28 (permalink)
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you may have missed the point
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:34 AM   #29 (permalink)
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To me, the whole idea of "cause and effect" is a consequence of (a) our perception of time and (b) conservation of mass/energy. If the laws of physics were different, would every effect require a cause?

My point is that our most basic axioms in logic are based on our observations of the world. Would 2 + 2 = 4 be a truism outside the laws of physics? I'm not sure. We've already discovered how wrong human intuition is about very small objects moving at very high speed. Outside the laws of physics, God might not need to be created.

Regardless, my proposed God would be undetectable, so there's really no point to discussing it other than fun speculation.
Only the true Messiah denies His divinity!
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:35 AM   #30 (permalink)
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you may have missed the point
No, I'm just taking the opportunity to slag you off.
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