Is violence ever the answer?

OccultHawk · 06-01-2018, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Yes, and?

Where does your moral foundation come from?

DwnWthVwls · 06-01-2018, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Where does your moral foundation come from?

Well-being. I stated this and asked you to consider for conversation sake that we agree that morality is concerned with well-being.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

but that the right choice is the one that leads to less harm is a subjective moral position in itself

it doesn't stand on being reasonable, it stands on the values of the user

there are many other values besides least amount of suffering including things likes freedom, truth, justice, etc

We can make evaluations about any scenario and determine objectively what is best for well-being. There are a finite number of responses to any situation and some set of those have to cause less harm than others. I agree morality doesn't stand on being reasonable, that's justification. Morality as I'm using it is concerned with well-being.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

idk many people who would find it reasonable to butcher any healthy man that walks into a hospital because his organs could save 5, in other words

Well that's a false equivalency, the man isn't going to die. You can certainly make a case for justified, but definitely not moral.

I provided a video, did either of you bother to watch, or is the 10 or so minutes that I timestamped for you too long?

OccultHawk · 06-01-2018, 10:07 PM

I watched it just now. I’ve heard Harris say all that same stuff already.

Dillahunty and Harris want to place religious codes with some kind of new secular humanist/ atheist based morality. If that caught on their names would be cemented with names like Martin Luther and Voltaire and Hammurabi.

But it’s not going to catch on because of a few reasons. 1) Harris and Co. are out of their depth. Harris is fun but he’s a pop-philosopher. What Michio Kaku and Neil deGrasse Tyson are to science, Harris and Pederson are to philosophy. They’re celebrities but Harris really wants to be taken seriously. He’s fun. I like him but he and Dillahunty are not going to redefine morality under a new atheistic code. The well-being idea is vague to the point of near meaninglessness. Pederson was destroying him even at the most fundamental level that it’s not a given that life is preferable to death.

I recommend being wary of these guys, Lawrence Kraus included, who want to be these like atheist leaders. Kraus’ book, Universe from Nothing, was an embarrassing overreach.

Well-being as a concept to strive for is worthless unless it has applications. And it’s just dull to try to replace religion with a codified form of atheism. I have no sense of allegiance to other people who DON’T believe something. And Sam Harris sure as **** isn’t someone I see as a leader. I don’t want any kind of leader but least of all a guru for my atheism. I don’t need to be guided through not believing.

DwnWthVwls · 06-01-2018, 10:39 PM

Lol.. Guess this is a done convo.

Lucem Ferre · 06-01-2018, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I think this seems true at face value but when you dig deeper you find it problematic

you could for instance, make first offense drunk driving punishable by death, and you would likely save a lot of innocent lives, however I don't think anyone would argue that'd be morally right

Seems like empathy towards drunk drivers is the reason why we don't do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

re: morality in general

I think it's certainly subjective however humans are moral animals

One of the strongest traits that humans have is our sense of community. Not only has it ensured our survival but it's the main reason we thrive so well. With out a sense of morality society would crumble so maybe it's wired into humans as a survival instinct.

DwnWthVwls · 06-01-2018, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

sure but again coming to the conclusion that well being is the most important outcome is a subjective moral call

thus if well being is your justification, it is a justification based on your morality

the 2nd situation is actually exactly the same as the first give or take 7 lives, neither would die if no action were to be taken, and again the justification would be on the moral grounds of the greatest well being

I'll address this since it's not full of bs like OHs post.

First, I never said that well-being as a moral outcome isn't subjective. I said if we agree it is, and specified it's the position I take, than "everything I've already said". If you have some other idea about what morality is, that's fine, I said from the start I disagree.

Second, I don't know why it's so hard to understand that justification is not dictated solely by morality(im not denying it doesnt factor in but it is not the arbiter of justification). You regurgitating this point doesn't make it true. Justification is about reasoning, you can have good reasons to do even subjectively immoral things. What is your definition of reason that requires I consider morality to be reasonable?

Third, sorry you're correct, I misunderstood the tracks example.

Is this not a philosophical discussion? I never once said I was right, I will however say that my approach to morality would make for a more consistent and probably better society than subjective morality.

Lastly, idgaf what you think about Dillahunty or anyone else.. I only care about the ideas, so you can both stop using ad hominem, assertions, and no true scotsman bs as an argument. "He's not a real philosopher". We are all philosophers. Also, well-being does have applications, what doesn't is subjective morality. How the hell do you apply that in a useful fashion?

Lucem Ferre · 06-03-2018, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I think it's because we have a sense of justice, and the death penalty is uneven punishment

why would our empathy for a drunk driver supersede our empathy for the future victims?

Because driving drunk isn't a conscious effort to murder. It's a mistake made by somebody with impaired judgement and doesn't guarantee that anybody will get hurt. That's why morals come from empathy and not a set of rules. Rules imply things are always black and white while empathy shows that there are some very grey areas.

Also, it's kind of a sick use of the slippery slope fallacy to assume that there will be future victims of every DUI arrest. Reminds me of anti gay propaganda from the 50s where they assumed that every homosexual would be a child predator.

^Real commercial they used to air on American television in the 50s. Probably inspiring to [merit].

~~Cuthbert~~ · 06-03-2018, 09:30 AM

Drink drivers do get off too easily considering the damage they could cause.

Lucem Ferre · 06-03-2018, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

well considering the amount of repeat offenders when it comes to DUI's it seems indisputable to me, that incredibly severe punishments for first time offenders would save lives

which would mean it's the proper action under a "least amount of suffering" mantra

ofc humans must be empathetic for us to have this discussion in the first place, but that's not really saying much

I don't have stats, but how many of them actually kill people?

The rules of empathy obviously change when you know that somebody doesn't mean to cause the suffering. Well, for most people. Because I do have this theory that empathy comes from narcissism because we are essentially projecting our egos on to others.

OccultHawk · 06-03-2018, 09:50 AM

On a danger to others scale of 1-100 walking is a 1, cycling is a 5, driving sober is a 95, driving drunk is a 100. Outrage against drunk driving without outrage against the private automobile in general is bull****.

06-01-2018, 10:07 PM	#133 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	I watched it just now. I’ve heard Harris say all that same stuff already. Dillahunty and Harris want to place religious codes with some kind of new secular humanist/ atheist based morality. If that caught on their names would be cemented with names like Martin Luther and Voltaire and Hammurabi. But it’s not going to catch on because of a few reasons. 1) Harris and Co. are out of their depth. Harris is fun but he’s a pop-philosopher. What Michio Kaku and Neil deGrasse Tyson are to science, Harris and Pederson are to philosophy. They’re celebrities but Harris really wants to be taken seriously. He’s fun. I like him but he and Dillahunty are not going to redefine morality under a new atheistic code. The well-being idea is vague to the point of near meaninglessness. Pederson was destroying him even at the most fundamental level that it’s not a given that life is preferable to death. I recommend being wary of these guys, Lawrence Kraus included, who want to be these like atheist leaders. Kraus’ book, Universe from Nothing, was an embarrassing overreach. Well-being as a concept to strive for is worthless unless it has applications. And it’s just dull to try to replace religion with a codified form of atheism. I have no sense of allegiance to other people who DON’T believe something. And Sam Harris sure as **** isn’t someone I see as a leader. I don’t want any kind of leader but least of all a guru for my atheism. I don’t need to be guided through not believing. __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

06-03-2018, 09:50 AM	#140 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,033	On a danger to others scale of 1-100 walking is a 1, cycling is a 5, driving sober is a 95, driving drunk is a 100. Outrage against drunk driving without outrage against the private automobile in general is bull****. __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

06-03-2018, 09:30 AM	#138 (permalink)
~~Cuthbert~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Black Country Posts: 8,827	Drink drivers do get off too easily considering the damage they could cause.