I've defended my point. You've yet to make one. My point in the sleeping part was that when someone is sleeping and they do indeed get raped, them sleeping isn't the reason for them being the victim. You don't know if it was consented before hand and you also don't know if she or he proceeded to go along with it. There's so much grey area with your point of a sleeping victim that it actually serves no purpose.

Don't assume I wouldn't call it rape if it was indeed rape.

It's an example of someone being unable to say no. It serves a damn good purpose, you dirty victim shamer.

You make that very difficult for me after this convo.

Sleeping doesn't automatically equal to being unable to say no. Have the lost their ability to speak? No. But again...im not saying sleeping isn't a factor. But to consider it a reason to victim shame is a bit farfetch'd especally not knowing the circumstaces. If say a court were to rule it rape simply on that the "victim" was sleeping, I'd call bs and further investigation into the event.

If someone is asleep and someone has sex with them without their explicit consent (remember that not saying no is not a factor here), it is rape. I can't believe you would even try to debate that and it doesn't make it look like you have the best interests of rape victims in mind.

So how about those other two very clear instances of victim blaming that I pointed out to you?

You've lost me. I don't know how clearer I can be. You also haven't pointed it out, at least not to what I'd consider victim blaming. I explicitly mentioned a few times that both can be at fault in certain situations.

Rape=sex without consent
Sex during sleep without consent=rape

Comprende?

Let's try this again, last time you just scoffed and said I didn't read your posts

This is basically saying that the victims are as bad as a rapist. If you don't think that's victim blaming then I don't know what to say except that you're way wrong.

And that too.

So is it rape if you wake up and then want it? Half-rape, half-consenual?

I've woke a girl up by going down on her and she was fine with it. I wouldn't consider myself a rapist.

I wouldn't say it was or wasnt (I'd lean more toward not being rape) but I also wouldn't consider what some would consider the victim...a victim. Especially if in the case as yours. That's the grey area.

Half rape unless they had permission to start when they were asleep.

Teetering a fine line, be careful.

If there's some precedent for that kind of thing in a relationship, like you know it's your girl's kink or something, then the situation changes a little.

^a little? It changes it entirely. You would actually call it rape if both parties agreed that it was ok? Even if it was random occasions that it happened?