Why would you hate those terms?

That makes now sense, how is it an unpopular opinion that no one cares what I have to say? If thats true, then obviously it's a popular opinion.

What I said is an unpopular opinion, good thing I stated it here, eh?

For the reason Seltzer stated, the way they are used.

Yes, but, he's saying it's unpopular to him, so he doesn't care what you don't like, but it's apparently a popular opinion that most of us do care what you don't like. Do you not see that we don't dislike knowing what you dislike?

Because Dylan is worlds better.

Well put. Moreover, the point that those things are considered somehow automatically "emotional" means that the emotional effect can be contrived. So in many cases, music that utilizes those techniques will have less genuine emotion than music that does not.

Yeah but thats ineptitude. I don't think its a lot to ask why you like something. Saying their better is not a valid position when one asks "why."

Yeah I think Seltzer and Boo Boo are talking about different things.

With regard to Seltzer, I got these he's taking aim at these "soulful" singers who are just well packaged mall-crowd sheen. Anytime a candidate on American Idol uses a melisma (sp?) or dips down to their gospel depths, I find it contrived. Its for people who havn't heard passionate music to say that its passionate.

With Boo boo, I don't think he likes the use at all. Springsteen looks like he's having a heartattack on stage everytime he plays, he works his craft over and over. I don't think its out of line to say he's got more passion than a Pete Yorn or something. And I cetainly think its a reason that he's better.

Passion tends to lead to better overall products, just because I cite it in a song isn't wrong though. When the White Stripes opened for the Stones, Jack White said they were still arguing over how to play "Satisfaction." Their not just going through the motions as a lot of detracters would suggest looking at their ticket prices.

Nah, thats just his constipated "hey look I'm being passionate" face.

Its horrible reasoning. Melody, rhythm, harmony, atmosphere, musicianship. These are things that go into making good songs. Passion is something you can't even objectively indentify, let alone measure.

I think you mean more marketable products.

And thats really all it is, a marketing term.

I never got all this "The Stones have a lot of passion" hoopla. I guess playing rock n roll is all you need to have "feeling" these days.

Your idea of passion seems really contrived to me. I mean you called John Lennon one of the most passionless songwriters in history, and this is the guy who f*cking wrote Plastic Ono Band.

Just what is your idea of passion anyway? Making retarded faces, adding some hand claps and doing some windmill strums and scissor kicks?

You really are more cantankerous than a 70 year old.

I think your problem can be traced back to the word "measure." And that not only tells us that which you value but why you can't get past certain things like "passion." And moreover, its why you're ramming it down everyones throat that they need to adhere to your standards of excellence.

And whose to determine what is horrible reasoning when we're going to talk about criteria for good songwriting. If I went up to the microphone and delivered a monotone, or druken version of anything, all the melody, harmony, craftsmanship...its all for not. Those are black and white notes on a page but they don't come with any emotions behind them. You need to have an emotional investment if you want to drag a song out to the point in which its as good as it could possibly be. Passion through delivery even seeps into the way the music is played. You can't write something and go through the motions, its simply bad business.

I'd like to ask how one claims to be a music fan by simply plugging in songs to mathmatical formulas all day long. And what do you know about Marketing?

Its my personal opinion of what makes good music.

You assume that just because I like ELP I'm some kind of old muso, who rates all music quality based on chops and listens to Mike Oldfield records all day. You couldn't be more wrong. In fact I know for a fact that we like a lot of the same music. We just enjoy it for different reasons.

I don't even get what your point is. I already said performance is a part of it, hence "musicianship".

Oh boy, here we go again.

And I ask you. How do you spot emotion? You can't, you cant read a musicians mind, you have no idea how much emotion was invested in a song when it was written, no idea at all. Its all assumption. You have your own made up critera for passion, so to speak.

Oh give me a freaking break. :laughing:

And how can you tell who is just going through the motions? You can't. What makes passion? What? The lyrical content? The kinda techniques that are used? THE FREAKING GENRE OF MUSIC?

Its all in your mind, you can put passion into your performances sure, but passion can't channel itself "through" the music or whatever you want to call it, music is just a sequence of sounds for goodness sake. Stop trying to make everything so dramatic.

Why not? Why can't people enjoy music for different reasons?

And for the last time I'm not a muso. When I listen to music I'm not thinking about what time signature it's in or what scale is being used for that guitar solo, I enjoy the damn music.

I think I know enough about how music is marketed.

"Passion" has been a successful marketing tool since the birth of rock n roll.

Ok. Dylan has written many of the greatest lyrics ever. Springsteen hasn't.