Is racism REALLY that relevant in music?
 

this has something that has angered me quite a bit. Jay-Z recently headlined Glastonbury, something which according to the media upset quite a few people. 'Hip Hop does not belong in Glastonbury' Noel Gallagher said. Rather ignorant of him to say, yes. But is that REALLY racist? Several articles I read about the matter of Jay-Z headlining Glasto seemed to all have the same underlying theme - that the people who were against it, MUST be racist.


Before that, Lethal Bizzle was bottled at Download festival. Yet again, the media pushed it as a racist attack. Lethal Bizzle came out with a statement afterwards, saying that he respected the crowds attitudes and obviously many of them were hardcore metallers who would not appreciate a Rap act coming on stage. He then said that he understands, because if a metal band turned up to a grime rave, things could have been even worse for them. Which is a completely true and respectable statement.

It just angers me, because I do not believe that in these times racism is relevant in music at all. In fact, the media pushing these incidents as racist attacks is simply instigating bitterness between races. I highly doubt that the bottling of Lethal Bizzle was a collective racist assault. It was merely a bunch of metallers who took pride in their genre, and did not want to see some rapper up on stage. Panic At The Disco were bottled at Reading, was that racist? No it wasn't. It was because the crowd thought they were ****.

Music is not something where racism belongs. It isn't like football matches, where a bunch of lunk-headed neanderthals use skin colour to insult the opposing teams players. In music, everyone is in the same team, regardless of race.

Tell that to Lydon.

ah... true point. But he's just one deluded and old fashioned fella from the skinhead era isn't he. Plus, it hasn't been proved that he said it... no one else heard it. It's Keke Okereke's word against his. And Keke Okereke's a **** anyway.

It is relevant, without the slave trade we wouldn't have the blues.

You might want to look up where the skinheads got their influences from.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ider_cover.jpg

No, not the least bit.

I don't really think he was talking about neo-nazism/white power/etc and **** when he posted this. Because you get that in movies, literature, etc and it's kind of it's own deal. Skrewdriver broke up like ten years ago anyway, so they're not relevant today. Besides if you're going to go there why not bring Bad Brains into this too? They were hardly a group of open-minded and loving individuals.

Ever heard of Elvis Presley?

And why do you think your grandparents might call rock n' roll "devil music"? I'm pretty goddamn sure it's not because you're listening to anything remotely Satanic. It's because the original rock n' rollers were black, not white, and anything that got kids on the dance floor that wasn't cracker music had to be in some way related to the devil. And even some of the earliest white rockers (who took most of their influence from Delta blues) were ignorant racists (like Eric Clapton).

It's sad today to see the gross bifurcation of race when you look at different types of music. It's getting better, but it's definitely still a problem.

Bad Brains were homophobic, not racist.

I doubt Lydon is really racist, wasn't he hanging about in ska clubs before the Pistols? You could say that that isn't enough to say he isn't racist but then would a racist really hang around in a mainly black scene?

It is quite funny that some people call the early skinhead scene racist when they were listening to Reggae and Ska especially in England late 60's/early 70's and indeed beyond with 2 tone.

I wasn't being serious, really, I just figured this would be a good thread to post that in.

he was a notorious champion of Afro-Caribbean music in the late seventies, hell reggae was punk before the bands started forming and playing in London at least. but apparently he's since become a massive bigot. so he probably doesn't talk to Don anymore, or that bloke who was in his band. i'm pretty sure he'll release a statement with his side of the story, so far all i've read is Kele Okelere's thing in the NME, which forgive me for saying so isn't quite the eye-witness fact-based journalism I require to decide the man who wrote 'Careering' is a racist ****

oh and the Noel Gallagher thing wasn't consciously racist, it was just ****ing ridiculous and highlighted the race/class divides in this country that we all already knew were there. And Bizzle actually had something along the lines of 'you black ****' spray painted on his tour bus while he was performing so...:rolleyes:

Noel Gallagher isn't racist, he's just a massively backwards closed-minded idiot.

That's what skinheads evolved into. It was a reaction by lower-class white Americans to the growing black nationalism movement.

he carries the torch for pub-rock like a true working class hero, la. oh sorry he's not from Liverpool *vomits*

I never said they were racist, I just said they weren't open-minded and loving but they're held in this awe and reverence by punk fans who supposedly hate that sort of bigotry. I just find it ridiculous.

"I feel very sorry for a man that needs to lie about what was a perfect evening…trouble was brought us, resulting in those causing the trouble being physically removed by festival security…If they need publicity so badly this is the allegation universe they run into."

"We are in the middle of a wonderful tour, after 30 years we are achieving a true unity in our audience. They are multi-varied, all ages, all races, creeds and colours. When you are at a festival with bands who are jealous fools, lies and confusion usually follow."

"Grow up and learn to be a true man. It's a shame that the wonderful world of the media is riddled with nonsense like this."

cheers sleepy. who to believe? they really should have beaten up that prick from Foals

I think a few people do not understand what I meant by race not being relevant in TODAY'S music. I understand completely that it was an issue way back when, youth should not be mistaken for stupidity...

We do understand, we are just filling the thread out with historical footnotes.

then I stand corrected. But on another note, I find it hilarious that Ricky Wilson of the Kaiser Chiefs stood in to 'back up' keke okereke in the fight.

And I think that if all those punks back in the 70's knew that one day Johnny Rotten would have an entourage, they would have threw out their safety pin dresses there and then.

Does it matter if music expresses racism...NO!

People have a right to their own opinion, and if music isn't true to the heart it ends up sucking...hard.

Yeah that makes sense because racist music doesn't suck or anything.

Don't tell me you don't enjoy Rebel Johnny...

Morrissey is either racist or he just has really bad taste in music because he seems to think all black music is "vile".

Though I've never been one to care too much about a songs lyrical content, I do have a problem with this kinda thing. I can accept it from bands like Fear because they do it in a rather goofy, tongue in cheek kinda way.

In his defense that was only referring to Reggae and he's kind of taken that back now with the whole Attack Records thing.
But yeah, he annoys me when he's that ambiguous about it all, doesn't help him. There's time like The National Front Disco where it's quite clearly satire but then there's songs like Asian Rut where it's less clear. Grr.

Moz: "Reggae, for example, is to me the most racist music in the entire world. It's an absolute total glorification of black supremacy... There is a line when defense of one's race becomes an attack on another race and, because of black history and oppression, we realise quite clearly that there has to be a very strong defence. But I think it becomes very extreme sometimes."
"But, ultimately, I don't have very cast iron opinions on black music other than black modern music which I detest. I detest Stevie Wonder. I think Diana Ross is awful. I hate all those records in the Top 40 - Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston. I think they're vile in the extreme. In essence this music doesn't say anything whatsoever."

Interviewer: But it does, it does. What it says can't necessarily be verbalised easily. It doesn't seek to change the world like rock music by speaking grand truths about politics, sex and the human condition. It works at a much more subtle level - at the level of the body and the shared abandon of the dancefloor. It won't change the world, but it's been said it may well change the way you walk through the world.

Moz: "I don't think there's any time anymore to be subtle about anything, you have to get straight to the point. Obviously to get on Top Of The Pops these days, one has to be, by law, black. I think something political has occurred among Michael Hurl and his friends and there has been a hefty pushing of all these black artists and all this discofied nonsense into the Top 40. I think, as a result, that very aware younger groups that speak for now are being gagged."

Interviewer: You seem to be saying that you believe that there is some sort of black pop conspiracy being organised to keep white indie groups down.

Moz: "Yes, I really do."

I'm sorry but this DOES seem pretty racist to me.

what are you basing that on?

Eric Clapton isn't any more racist than say, Elvis Costello.

Haha i forgot about that rant, forgot when it was, got a source?

It's uncomfortable reading yes. The two ways you could look at it is that there's someone who is either actually biased towards black music due to race or someone who is so biased towards that sort of music that he takes it's popularity as an attack on other music.
The generalising is disgusting to be frank. An attack on modern black music simply because of whats in the charts? Give over. I agree with him on the likes of Janet Jackson and Whitney Houston, their music says nothing to me either but i wouldn't dare use THEM as an example for an attack on a whole race's fucking music. Goes without saying there is far better stuff going on in the underground.

I don't really know what to make of it because, yes it is quite blatantly an attack on race, but then you've Morrissey and his stupid drama-queen double entendres he whips out half the time. You never really know whether he means what he says or not half the time.
"Obviously to get on Top Of The Pops these days, one has to be, by law, black.", could be taken as ignorant and tongue-in-cheek either way.

I know it takes away the mystique he loves so much but i really would love him to take part in an extensive interview over all this to clear it all up once and for all. He's an intelligent person really and should be the last person to be racist, but this kind of thing really does annoy me. One thing for sure is he's a fucking idiot with stuff like this, talk about Bigmouth.

From Rolling Stone.

During Costello's 1979 tour of the U.S., when one night in a bar in Columbus, Ohio, at odds with the Stephen Stills Band, Costello suddenly denounced Ray Charles as "a blind , arrogant, ******," he said much the same about James Brown, and attacked the stupidity of American black music in general. Bramlett decked him; the incident quickly made the papers, then "People" magazine, and the resulting scandal forced a New York press conference - Costello's first real face-to-face encounter with journalists since the Fall of 1977 - where he tried to explain himself, and , according to both Costello and those who questioned him, failed.

Clapton never said anything that extreme, he does have some rather conservative views about immigration but thats not enough to make him a racist, I mean c'mon, Eric Clapton? Think about that for a sec, this guy has been trying to be black for the majority of his career. :laughing:

Hmm, that was back in the 80's where he claimed that stuff like the 'Reggae is vile' was tongue-in-cheek. He's said positive things about black music after this of as well of course so it's all up in the air as ever, grr.

The skinhead scene continued listening to ska right up to the 80s and through the National Front times. In fact it was the great irony of the scene that they clung in diehard fashion to ska music while being blatant full-blown National Front campaigner racists.

Also that Lydon hung out in ska clubs says nothing about whether or not he was racist. Loads of extremely racist white Americans in the 1950s used to listen to rhythm and blues with a passion. Liking a certain type of music does not indicate that you tolerate the people who made it. The music itself is a separate entity to the personalities behind it. I love a lot of Michael Jackson's material. I still would have loved the music even if it turned out he had been guilty. Also, just what is a "ska club" anyway? It could have been a club full of white people that listened to ska.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about Costello.

I think one has to accept the middle ground here. You can't call someone a racist if they don't like the blues (or hip-hop, or reggae), but someone who will listen to Pat Boone instead of Little Richard or Fats Domino...that's either racism or just plain bad taste. :p

You gotta point there. My grandmother has some pretty racist points of view.

But she loves Fats Domino and R&B, especially Motown.

And no you don't have to listen to only music that reflects your point of view or outlook on life.

Pat Boone is SO horrible. His Little Richard covers are ghastly.





It certainly took a while for the brothers in rock n roll to get any respect. Elvis, Jerry Lee, Buddy Holly, Ricky Nielson, Bill Haley and all those guys had to break into the scene first before black rock n roller's could ever be accepted by the mainstream. So until kids were finally free to listen to Little Richard, they had to settle for Pat, dark ages indeed.

Oh yeah i already agreed with you to a point, of course you don't have to like music AND agree with whatever prejudices the musician has,. I mean, i love Bad Brains even though i know they're homophobic idiots.
I know little about the club scene then but do know that he did frequent clubs where ska and reggae was played and where it was mostly black people there.

I think in this case it was Lydon wanting to live up to the Rotten image of old, wanted to a be seen as that rebel image again so said something controversial.

Even today, some rock historians give Holly more credit than they give Berry, even though Berry came first and has more of a claim to the "original singer-songwriter-guitaris" tag. I think it's pretty sad that Little Richard doesn't get much credit either (I'm not a fan of his music, but I think he was far more inventive and possibly influential than many of his contemporaries).

But yeah, Pat Boone's work is wretched, and I think it's proof that there was some sort of racism back then that people would buy the "safe" versions of rock songs (i.e., made by a white guy).

The Birmingham immigration shit and I seem to remember Clapton saying something derogative about Jimi Hendrix (he implied that he shouldn't be producing psychedelic music because of the color of his skin). He immediately regretted his statement, and as a sign, thereafter he invited African-American musicians to perform in his band. It was all pretty much all racist bullshit though.

And yes, Elvis Costello is too a racist.

The whole Rock against racism thing in the 70s started after Clapton made a comment about how the UK was becoming overcrowded and was becoming a black colony at a gig in Birmingham.

Clapton and Costello were both apparrently drunk when they made these statements, to be fair.

There was also something David Bowie said that set people off, but he's always been trying to offend people, and he married a black woman so ehhhhhhh...

Jim Morrison was also a drunken racist.