The Evolution of Music: Accident, or Adaptation?

Salami · 12-01-2011, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveeden888

I am certain that the various scriptural accounts are much more viable as scientific fact, but, as for the Biblical account, I believe it was Tubal-cain who was the instructor of men in all artifices of brass and stringed instruments. I do not know who his vocalist was, but, David apparently was a singer, and his psalms I don't believe were meant as a means to impress chicks. Unless, the LORD was actually Eve. I have some pretty good evidence that he was a she.

Oh help. Tore, remember what you did with the Virgin just before he was banned? I think I might do the same with this guy.

Pedestrian, I remember that in my iGCSE music syllabus (I've still got it!), music itself is similarly described as the "organised collection of sound". This is supposed to account for all classical music or instrumental tracks as well. I know there is a "grey area" concerning language in this definition, and I suppose that is one of the limits of trying to define something so broad and diverse: the shorter the definition will have to be.

SIRIUSB · 12-01-2011, 01:27 PM

As I stated earlier (http://www.musicbanter.com/general-m...ml#post1126526)
"music is organized sound and silence in time".

duga · 12-01-2011, 02:40 PM

Ok...just read through this whole thing. Very interesting stuff.

So you guys mentioning music being organized sound kinda leads into this. For some reason no one (the authors of that book included from what I could tell) has talked about how the human brain is basically just a big pattern recognizer. We recognize patterns visually and respond to them. We recognize patterns of touch and respond to those as well. Hell, even taste and smell are just recognizing patterns. Certain foods bring a lot of joy because of this. Ever smelled something that takes you straight back to when you were a little kid? Music is no different.

Humans are fascinated by patterns. We instinctively want to recognize patterns. When we experience something that is difficult to deduce a pattern from, we get really frustrated. I for one get really frustrated with a lot of avante garde music because my mind has a hard time latching on to a pattern in the music...which I unconsciously look for whenever I listen to music. Sometimes this motivates me to listen to it more just to figure out if there is something there. Scientific discovery is, in essence, just looking for patterns in nature. I feel all the factors mentioned (co-evolution and music's use as a courtship display) had an effect, but in the end music has lasted because the essence of music is patterns and we as humans frikkin love patterns. That's why music will always be around in some form.

edit: I said patterns a lot.

Patterns.

Another edit:

I feel people like us - the audiophiles - have recognized that these patterns are connected to our emotions and memories and we are obsessed with that. It's like a drug. And I'll agree with jackhammer that I feel incredibly sorry for people who haven't experienced the rush involved with hearing something that really clicks.

Paedantic Basterd · 12-01-2011, 02:54 PM

Excellent post Duga. The book spends a lot of time explaining the precise balance of expectation, realization, and surprise that goes into our brain's enjoyment of music, the regions in which this takes place, and which aspects of music deliver it.

What I found interesting is when the book pointed out patterns to me in music I was not accustomed to. Culturally I was brought up on the standard AABA song formation, so classical and jazz (for instance) music all seems very unfocussed to me. I was very surprised to learn that these genres have structure as well; I just haven't heard enough of the paradigm to learn it. Teaching some of the basic structures of genres yields greater enjoyment of the pieces.

Salami · 12-01-2011, 03:18 PM

I agree with Duga. I like this idea of "patterns" being the object of something human endeavour seems to be in search of: order. And with music, we can have organised sound, and hence we are fulfilling this desire we have to make sense of things.
You seem disappointed with avant garde music for it's lack of detectable order, and I feel the same for bands like the Mars Volta. I peronally think that as soon as they have an idea, they will play once and move on.

This is the good thing about having AABA forms of music, or even the old "verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus", is that it fulfills this order in a simple yet satisfying way.

I'm probably saying only a simplistic and narrow minded version of what you've just said, but at least I tried!

blankety blank · 12-01-2011, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Unlike Steve, I don't really know that much about the subject, although I will say that the bit Pedestrian posted about music happening in many regions of the brain indicating that music is piggybacking other developed traits, like language - makes sense to me. It doesn't mean I'm not open to a good counter argument if someone provides one.

Songbirds are a good example that have taken this "males sing for females" strategy to the extreme. In some species of birds, probably a lot of them really, you can make them sing more by giving them testosterone. If in 50 million years, something like intellectually and culturally advanced birdmen exist, they could potentially trace the origin of music back to when the first bird started singing. But only if bird song is considered music (it's instinctual rather than intentional), so .. for the purposes of this thread, defining what we mean by music might also be useful! If it's an ape bashing a log to make cool sounds, then one might have to go back very far.

edit :

The idea that, evolutionary speaking, men make music to attract women doesn't mean every song is a mating call. It just means men who make music are more attractive and so their own intellectual justification or whatever for making the music in the first place isn't necessarily important. What's important is that chicks think it's hot. As long as they do, making music is a good strategy for maximizing fitness.

Anyways, peace Steve!

thank you tore. I just wanted make this post a peace offering, and, to commend your insight. Every point you made was extremely well-thought, and offered an very intelligent and articulate read. If this is what this thread is designed to discuss, then, I was off-topic. I did not read the entire beginning of the thread, and, remarked on parts I saw and commented without reading the entire beginning post.

So, my bad. I say I have a degree in psychology, but, I have come to mostly despise this 'science'. But, as for this discussion, I probably should have read more, and was merely offering myself a chance to slam corporate fascism, as I am well accustomed to want.

Anyway, I see one thing you noted, however, that I don't quite agree. Oscines and even Passeriformes sing elaborate and almost like a band when they are simply flying. I am of the opinion, that birds are quite a bit more evolved than humans. They form very ordered societies, and communicate with each other probably much better and more sophisticated than we probably realize.

It is certainly a male mating ritual as well, but, here is quick story. I was five years old, and walking down the sidewalk under a tree. I saw a baby bird lying there, and, was apparently injured, or even dead, I can't remember. I do remember hearing some chirping loudly from another part of the schoolyard. I remember this well, because, I looked at it and went to pick it up.

You've seen Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds". Hundreds just swooped down, and, I have been freaked out, but, they attacked me from everywhere. My brothers were close, and, if they hadn't come and grabbed me, I am certain I wouldn't be typing right now.

Long story, but, I honestly feel that there are many, many species on this planet more evolved than we are. As for songbirds, I agree and would add that I imagine they rather enjoy creating just as artists. If I have to come back to this pit, a bird would not be a bad gig. And, birds are very symbolic in all of man's cultural symbolism through painting on cave walls to every myth or scripture ever written.

This is my swan song, as, I am going out to try to find some new music. I just wanted to clear the air. I do not want to be anyone's enemy. I have enough on the various religion forums I rant on. I am not a scientist. I am a History and Religious Studies major, and only minored in psychobabble

I do have tremendous respect for Jung, as well as Nietzsche, who was more of a psychoanalyst than Freud could ever dream. IMHO

So, please accept my apology, and, start all over if you would please.

Take care. Sorry for the length. And, a very nice post.

Dustin Kensrue of Thrice Consider the Ravens. My offer of friendship

peace

steve

duga · 12-01-2011, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

What I found interesting is when the book pointed out patterns to me in music I was not accustomed to. Culturally I was brought up on the standard AABA song formation, so classical and jazz (for instance) music all seems very unfocussed to me. I was very surprised to learn that these genres have structure as well; I just haven't heard enough of the paradigm to learn it. Teaching some of the basic structures of genres yields greater enjoyment of the pieces.

I'll probably pick up this book...I don't know how much I want to really break down my enjoyment of music to a science, but it does sound like it covers a lot of interesting stuff.

Jazz is actually the perfect example of this. I also could never really get into jazz...it took a very traceable and "patterned" path for me to get it. I'm a huge Smashing Pumpkins fan, so naturally I think Jimmy Chamberlin is an amazing drummer. He had a lot of jazz roots, so I could really appreciate that. So, jazz drums were my first hook. It was actually his second band The Jimmy Chamberlin Complex that kind of helped the music side of things along. It was like a jazz/alternative blend so I knew I could enjoy jazz on some level. Still, I couldn't really get into it until one day I happened to listen to Charles Mingus's album "The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady". There was something in that album that just clicked with me. Now I love jazz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mighty Salami

You seem disappointed with avant garde music for it's lack of detectable order, and I feel the same for bands like the Mars Volta. I peronally think that as soon as they have an idea, they will play once and move on.

I'm not really disappointed with it. I just have a really hard time enjoying it until my mind can latch on to something. That's too bad you don't like the Mars Volta. They really do it right, in my opinion. I'll agree Omar can be all over the place and it would be great for him to linger on some of those ideas a bit longer, but I still think it's great stuff.

Salami · 12-02-2011, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

That's too bad you don't like the Mars Volta. They really do it right, in my opinion. I'll agree Omar can be all over the place and it would be great for him to linger on some of those ideas a bit longer, but I still think it's great stuff.

I don't really find any kind of direction there. I've listened to Frances the Mute and Amputecture but I always thought that they never elaborate on ideas. And can you imagine playing them in your car?

Jazz is interesting. I personally am very keen on ragtime, and found jazz to be often similar but with much more capacity for improvisation. This is more like the way I see elaboration on an idea.

duga · 12-02-2011, 10:33 AM

Before we go off on a tangent with this...I'll just say you need to listen to Deloused in the Comatorium before you make any kind of judgement on the band. Without that album, I doubt I could have gotten into Frances the Mute or any of their later albums.

Salami · 12-02-2011, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

Before we go off on a tangent with this...I'll just say you need to listen to Deloused in the Comatorium before you make any kind of judgement on the band. Without that album, I doubt I could have gotten into Frances the Mute or any of their later albums.

Thank you. I would like to consider myself open minded about music and am more than willing to give them another go!

12-01-2011, 02:40 PM	#53 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	Ok...just read through this whole thing. Very interesting stuff. So you guys mentioning music being organized sound kinda leads into this. For some reason no one (the authors of that book included from what I could tell) has talked about how the human brain is basically just a big pattern recognizer. We recognize patterns visually and respond to them. We recognize patterns of touch and respond to those as well. Hell, even taste and smell are just recognizing patterns. Certain foods bring a lot of joy because of this. Ever smelled something that takes you straight back to when you were a little kid? Music is no different. Humans are fascinated by patterns. We instinctively want to recognize patterns. When we experience something that is difficult to deduce a pattern from, we get really frustrated. I for one get really frustrated with a lot of avante garde music because my mind has a hard time latching on to a pattern in the music...which I unconsciously look for whenever I listen to music. Sometimes this motivates me to listen to it more just to figure out if there is something there. Scientific discovery is, in essence, just looking for patterns in nature. I feel all the factors mentioned (co-evolution and music's use as a courtship display) had an effect, but in the end music has lasted because the essence of music is patterns and we as humans frikkin love patterns. That's why music will always be around in some form. edit: I said patterns a lot. Patterns. Another edit: I feel people like us - the audiophiles - have recognized that these patterns are connected to our emotions and memories and we are obsessed with that. It's like a drug. And I'll agree with jackhammer that I feel incredibly sorry for people who haven't experienced the rush involved with hearing something that really clicks. __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

12-02-2011, 10:33 AM	#59 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	Before we go off on a tangent with this...I'll just say you need to listen to Deloused in the Comatorium before you make any kind of judgement on the band. Without that album, I doubt I could have gotten into Frances the Mute or any of their later albums. __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

12-01-2011, 01:27 PM	#52 (permalink)
SIRIUSB Luciferian Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 278	As I stated earlier (http://www.musicbanter.com/general-m...ml#post1126526) "music is organized sound and silence in time".

12-01-2011, 02:54 PM	#54 (permalink)
Paedantic Basterd Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 5,184	Excellent post Duga. The book spends a lot of time explaining the precise balance of expectation, realization, and surprise that goes into our brain's enjoyment of music, the regions in which this takes place, and which aspects of music deliver it. What I found interesting is when the book pointed out patterns to me in music I was not accustomed to. Culturally I was brought up on the standard AABA song formation, so classical and jazz (for instance) music all seems very unfocussed to me. I was very surprised to learn that these genres have structure as well; I just haven't heard enough of the paradigm to learn it. Teaching some of the basic structures of genres yields greater enjoyment of the pieces.

12-01-2011, 03:18 PM	#55 (permalink)
Salami Get in ma belly Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 1,385	I agree with Duga. I like this idea of "patterns" being the object of something human endeavour seems to be in search of: order. And with music, we can have organised sound, and hence we are fulfilling this desire we have to make sense of things. You seem disappointed with avant garde music for it's lack of detectable order, and I feel the same for bands like the Mars Volta. I peronally think that as soon as they have an idea, they will play once and move on. This is the good thing about having AABA forms of music, or even the old "verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus", is that it fulfills this order in a simple yet satisfying way. I'm probably saying only a simplistic and narrow minded version of what you've just said, but at least I tried!