Stephen

I think there are probably a bit of both accident and adaptation at work. My guess is that music is an adaptation/ extension on the development of language. Enjoying it on a deeper emotional level may be an accident of brain chemistry. Maybe a common form of synesthesia where it accidently triggers pleasure centres in the brain?

Salami

No one criticizes tore's credentials. After his biology degree he became the only man in history to win the Nobel prize twice.

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I probably should not have. I looked at his upload. He looks more like Thor. I think I will delete my location now

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The passing traveler stops for food and music.

Salami

On a serious note, tore is extremely well qualified for this.

blankety blank

I'm sure he is. I don't have an issue. But, the fact is that I was not completely ignorant and totally off-topic. Simply, because I addressed something that was not posted as a consideration on the part of 'scholars', who wish to study the human brain's capacity to create music as if it were an organism, that evolved from a phylum to a sub sub species, and does not impress me; and, I posted an opinion that was completely valid as it applies to contemporary music did not call for the response I received.

I may have made some light-hearted jabs, but, they were not malicious in intent, as, I know the reply I received was. If you're going to call someone out as stupid, and completely ignorant of the topic at hand, have some class. Or, expect a reply.

I may have responded with what appeared to be equal malice, but, only what I felt as humorous, and not malicious in intent. I'm sure everyone here is well qualified to post.

However, he did claim that I posted something entirely different than what I actually wrote, so, when you do not agree, or wish to make a point, then, don't just call someone a stupid, ill-informed moron who does not understand the topic. Provide some evidence as to how I failed to address any portion of the topic at hand, or just ask for clarification. It's called discussion, not a grade school game of who's the moron.

I know I'm stupid, I didn't need anyone to reiterate that point

The thread did address contemporary music, and, how musicians are motivated and influenced on the content of their prose. I just brought up a reality that was 'overlooked' by the so-called 'experts'.

I'm over it as of before I even replied, so, I harbor no ill feelings. And, relay to the gentleman that I hope he feels the same.

Does this song sound like it has evolved as a primate mating ritual, or, have you heard this sound for many years, despite the fact that this 'idol' never penned a word of it?



Is this 'evolution'? Or, marketing appeal?

peace

steve

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The passing traveler stops for food and music.

SIRIUSB

I'm going to comment on the OP and avoid getting in the middle of all this turmoil.

Concerning the Darwinian evolution of music, I wouldn't agree that 'music' as we define it today has evolved by natural selection, but rather that 'sound' did and in a very esoteric definition of music (the organization of sound and silence in time) perhaps could have evolved by natural selection.

One of my favorite ideas concerning Cymatics is that after the Big Bang there existed a soup of cosmic dust so to speak, and resulting from this tremendous super nova there also was put into motion the Primordial Vibration.

Called the Word in the Judeo-Christian Bible, Hindu Scriptures call it Naad and Shruti, Persian scriptures Sraosha, Kalma in Muslim scriptures, ‘the Sonorous Light' in Buddhism, Naam or Shabd by the Sikhs, in Patanjali Yoga Darshan, the God/dess Ishwara is a Being expressed by this original vibration (Pranav) and Madam Helen Blavatsky and the Theosophists call it ‘the Voice of Silence'.

The most popular word for this is OM, and through the influx of vibration all things in the physical Universe were created through sacred geometry such as the Fibonacci sequence, the Golden Mean.

Paedantic Basterd

Tore is the number one person I was hoping this would lure into discussion.

Guybrush

Unlike Steve, I don't really know that much about the subject, although I will say that the bit Pedestrian posted about music happening in many regions of the brain indicating that music is piggybacking other developed traits, like language - makes sense to me. It doesn't mean I'm not open to a good counter argument if someone provides one.

Songbirds are a good example that have taken this "males sing for females" strategy to the extreme. In some species of birds, probably a lot of them really, you can make them sing more by giving them testosterone. If in 50 million years, something like intellectually and culturally advanced birdmen exist, they could potentially trace the origin of music back to when the first bird started singing. But only if bird song is considered music (it's instinctual rather than intentional), so .. for the purposes of this thread, defining what we mean by music might also be useful! If it's an ape bashing a log to make cool sounds, then one might have to go back very far.

edit :

The idea that, evolutionary speaking, men make music to attract women doesn't mean every song is a mating call. It just means men who make music are more attractive and so their own intellectual justification or whatever for making the music in the first place isn't necessarily important. What's important is that chicks think it's hot. As long as they do, making music is a good strategy for maximizing fitness.

Anyways, peace Steve!

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Something Completely Different

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thank you tore. I just wanted make this post a peace offering, and, to commend your insight. Every point you made was extremely well-thought, and offered an very intelligent and articulate read. If this is what this thread is designed to discuss, then, I was off-topic. I did not read the entire beginning of the thread, and, remarked on parts I saw and commented without reading the entire beginning post.

So, my bad. I say I have a degree in psychology, but, I have come to mostly despise this 'science'. But, as for this discussion, I probably should have read more, and was merely offering myself a chance to slam corporate fascism, as I am well accustomed to want.

Anyway, I see one thing you noted, however, that I don't quite agree. Oscines and even Passeriformes sing elaborate and almost like a band when they are simply flying. I am of the opinion, that birds are quite a bit more evolved than humans. They form very ordered societies, and communicate with each other probably much better and more sophisticated than we probably realize.

It is certainly a male mating ritual as well, but, here is quick story. I was five years old, and walking down the sidewalk under a tree. I saw a baby bird lying there, and, was apparently injured, or even dead, I can't remember. I do remember hearing some chirping loudly from another part of the schoolyard. I remember this well, because, I looked at it and went to pick it up.

You've seen Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds". Hundreds just swooped down, and, I have been freaked out, but, they attacked me from everywhere. My brothers were close, and, if they hadn't come and grabbed me, I am certain I wouldn't be typing right now.

Long story, but, I honestly feel that there are many, many species on this planet more evolved than we are. As for songbirds, I agree and would add that I imagine they rather enjoy creating just as artists. If I have to come back to this pit, a bird would not be a bad gig. And, birds are very symbolic in all of man's cultural symbolism through painting on cave walls to every myth or scripture ever written.

This is my swan song, as, I am going out to try to find some new music. I just wanted to clear the air. I do not want to be anyone's enemy. I have enough on the various religion forums I rant on. I am not a scientist. I am a History and Religious Studies major, and only minored in psychobabble

I do have tremendous respect for Jung, as well as Nietzsche, who was more of a psychoanalyst than Freud could ever dream. IMHO

So, please accept my apology, and, start all over if you would please.

Take care. Sorry for the length. And, a very nice post.

Dustin Kensrue of Thrice Consider the Ravens. My offer of friendship



peace

steve

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The passing traveler stops for food and music.

Paedantic Basterd

The book defines music in the opening chapters as "Organized sound". However, that leaves a gray area for language, and an even grayer area for bird language.