The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (country, track, quote, Ching)

cardboard adolescent · 06-09-2006, 10:06 PM

Complexity is a completely relative term.

And everyone underestimates chance. Billions of years can cause a lot of interesting things to happen.

The Ten Thousandth Fist · 06-09-2006, 10:17 PM

Both points are true. But tell me. How complex do you think the human eye is?

Sure it's possible that over the course of billions of years, things may happen to create something new. But did you know that only one mutation in a string of RNA can completely incapacitate a protein and make it useless? In fact, one mutation [s]sometimes[/s] oftentimes makes no difference whatsoever. As such, it would take millions upon millions upon millions of individual mutations to make a noticeable difference in the overall appearance, mannerism, and physiology of a creature.

And if those mutations didn't work out right, then guess what. That individual would cease to exist. And those mutations couldn't build upon one another. And you'd essentially be back to square one.

cardboard adolescent · 06-09-2006, 10:29 PM

Given millions of years and millions of creatures, I don't really see why statistically that poses any sort of problem.

Juggalo4life88 · 06-09-2006, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ten Thousandth Fist

I'm a creationist, and a Christian, but I have just this to say to you, Juggalo.

Give. It. A. Rest.

You seem to be a pretty devout Christian, amirite? Then tell me, please, your justification of calling these others bigots. They're just exercising their free will. Even God doesn't mess with free will, we know this well enough. Let people believe what they choose. We may not like what they believe, but it is imperative that you be tolerant of others' views. It's just a fact of life. People will have different beliefs because we have the ability to form unique opinions. And that is that. So shut your trap, stop the hypocrisy, and let people believe what they want.

On another note, evolution is taught in schools and creationism isn't (for the most part) because of the mandate of the separation of church and state. It isn't open bigotry by the individual school systems. It's federal law. Don't ask me why. While it may not be a valid scientific theory, it is a theory as to how the universe came about. And I think that theories, whatever their basis, should be considered for what they are. As theories. Theories, technically, are not proven fact, but that doesn't mean we can't assume them to be so. Except when multiple theories are proposed for a single phenomenon (i.e., the creation of Earth and the creatures on it), it comes down to a person's individual beliefs. So again, Juggalo, put a sock in it.

But being an open-minded individual, I do consider what others think. And what riseagainstrocks said does make sense. God easily could have created us all... man, other animals, the universe... and said, "Have at it." He knew we could adapt. He knew things would change, and He knew that we could change with them. And that, in essence, is evolution.

So yeah, evolution does take place. I'm not denying that. I just know that God created us in the first place. We're too complex... everything is too complex... to just have happened by chance.

I would give it a rest, but it's hard to when you're being attacked from every angle and they are just as unaccepting as I seem to be. I know it doesn't matter what they say, in the end God will deal with them. But why do some have to bring that up in forums a friend of mine and I start, when it has nothing to do with the topic? They just want to fight about it and ruin forums. They know who I'm talking about. and that's the last of it I'll mention as long as they quit trying to violate my opinion.

The Ten Thousandth Fist · 06-09-2006, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

Given millions of years and millions of creatures, I still don't really see why statistically that poses any sort of problem.

It's still just chance. While I understand your perspective, wheel around for a moment and look at it from mine. Is it feasible that over the span of time, enough mutations could develop in generations of creatures - mutations that coincided and were beneficial to the survival of the species, for that matter - to effectively mold a different specie into what we have now?

cardboard adolescent · 06-09-2006, 11:15 PM

First of all, the mutations don't have to coincide. So long as two creatures are still able to mate the new characteristics can be passed down. Secondly, I'm sure mutations developed that were both detrimental and beneficial, but that's where natural selection comes in.

It's not that I don't see what you're saying, it's just that I see "oh... well God did it..." as the ultimate cop-out. And it doesn't really explain anything, it just generates more questions.

riseagainstrocks · 06-10-2006, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

It's not that I don't see what you're saying, it's just that I see "oh... well God did it..." as the ultimate cop-out. And it doesn't really explain anything, it just generates more questions.

Occam's Razor.

I'm not saying it applies to everything, but we as humans have a tendancy to invent fantastic theories and complicated explinations to things that are often very simple to explain. Calling it a "cop out" in a purely logical sense is indeed a fallacy.

cardboard adolescent · 06-11-2006, 12:46 PM

Nothing is very simple. The way I see it, the universe is infinitely complex, and as long as there is ANYTHING we can't fully explain or understand, people will find room for God. But as history has proven, we keep understanding more and more and the need for God as an explanation keeps diminishing.

The Ten Thousandth Fist · 06-11-2006, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

The way I see it, the universe is infinitely complex...

And that is my exact point. How could a simple explosion of unorganized matter cause such complexity?

swim · 06-11-2006, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ten Thousandth Fist

And that is my exact point. How could a simple explosion of unorganized matter cause such complexity?

Limiting your thinking, aren't you?

Anyway you ask how could something become so complex but don't realize that all systems start out simple and then grow. In World History my teacher gave us a calendar of the history of the world if it were to take place in one year. If I remember correctly human civilization is only three minutes out of a whole year. It has taking a long time for things to become as complex as they are.

06-09-2006, 10:17 PM	#1472 (permalink)
The Ten Thousandth Fist Music Taste is Subjective Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Hell if I know. Posts: 79	Both points are true. But tell me. How complex do you think the human eye is? Sure it's possible that over the course of billions of years, things may happen to create something new. But did you know that only one mutation in a string of RNA can completely incapacitate a protein and make it useless? In fact, one mutation [s]sometimes[/s] oftentimes makes no difference whatsoever. As such, it would take millions upon millions upon millions of individual mutations to make a noticeable difference in the overall appearance, mannerism, and physiology of a creature. And if those mutations didn't work out right, then guess what. That individual would cease to exist. And those mutations couldn't build upon one another. And you'd essentially be back to square one. __________________ "There was nothing about her that a vasectomy of the vocal cords wouldn't fix."

06-09-2006, 10:06 PM	#1471 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	Complexity is a completely relative term. And everyone underestimates chance. Billions of years can cause a lot of interesting things to happen.

06-09-2006, 10:29 PM	#1473 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	Given millions of years and millions of creatures, I don't really see why statistically that poses any sort of problem.

06-09-2006, 11:15 PM	#1476 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	First of all, the mutations don't have to coincide. So long as two creatures are still able to mate the new characteristics can be passed down. Secondly, I'm sure mutations developed that were both detrimental and beneficial, but that's where natural selection comes in. It's not that I don't see what you're saying, it's just that I see "oh... well God did it..." as the ultimate cop-out. And it doesn't really explain anything, it just generates more questions.

06-11-2006, 12:46 PM	#1478 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	Nothing is very simple. The way I see it, the universe is infinitely complex, and as long as there is ANYTHING we can't fully explain or understand, people will find room for God. But as history has proven, we keep understanding more and more and the need for God as an explanation keeps diminishing.