ok, i'm not even going to dignify the part about the opinions of people in foreign countries with an answer, because it was such an ignorant statement, but I will say this. Don't assume that you are the only person on this site who knows about the situation in iraq solely based on the fact that you happen to live on a military base. I'm positive that I know a lot more about the situation in the middle east, and possibly a lot more about american involvement, because I grew up on an american military base in Saudi Arabia, so I think that qualify's me to have an opinion. on to your next point. Apparently you couldn't be bothered to read shadowsniper's post, in which he gave a very accurate and informative account as to why the US will never initiate an attack on saudi arabia, so I will make this as simple and short as I can. Saudi Arabia has a lot of oil. American corporations hold a great deal of shares of the oil industry in saudi arabia. bombs in saudi arabia = america's economy going down the $hitter. if you need a more detailed account I would be happy to give a lot more information, but I have a lot of work to finish tonight and I want to keep this quick. and in closing, this thread really should be moved to the lounge, even though it was intended to be more about how music deals with the issue of american politics, it hasn't panned out, for better or for worse. actually I lied, my last point is actually this. I do generally agree more with democratic candidates, but in this particular matter, I don't believe kerry is a particularly good candidate. I think he's better than bush for sure, but that's not saying much, and I think its truly a tragedy that the most powerful nation in the world is forced to choose between the lesser of two evils so to speak. Now, on this ONE topic (ie the presidential election) you are entitled to say that my opinion doesn't matter, because I'm not a US citizen, but I will give my two cents. If you want Bush out of power, don't vote nadar, it will only take votes away from the democrats, so vote kerry. If you know you want bush out of power, but you truly believe that kerry is a horrible option, simply refuse your ballot. it will send a much clearer message than if you simply settle for the lesser of two evils. having said that, I'm actually going to end my post so I can get some work done.

Nicely done Jibber. I wont write much. I just really agree with what you said and its really cool that you were born in, hm, I guess in the US if its on a US base? Well its cool that you have been in other places than just the US. I guess we can make another thread in the lounge, but I guess it should be about something else. We get the sense that alot of people dont agree with Bush but I just wanted to write a mammoth post about the history of it. Even though I am turning 18 in like 1 week, I know more than half the people older than me if not more. Waw, I sound arrogant. Done with that, lol. Its just sad to me. I dont know what the previous guy was bringing up though. He has no clue it seems and is pulling things out of his A$$. Twisted mentality for sure. Yeah, I would love to vote for Nader if I was American, but I wouldnt for this election. American politics are messed up, its not like other democratic countries where you have the primaries and then the top 2 go head to head. It makes it the "lesser of 2 evils" like that. So anyways, nice debate. Thankx Jibber, had good info by the way. Laterz.

i was actually born in canada, but moved to saudi arabia when i was really young, and don't remember anything before then, so I basically grew up there. living there definitely gave me a unique perspective on the subject, mainly because I was able to see not only how the US corporations opperated within the country and how they fit in with the local government (which in the very near future could collapse entirely, but thats another story) but i also got to see first hand alot of arab sentiment regarding the United states and other western countries. for the most part, the majority of arab muslims in the middle east have very negative feelings for america's government, but not their citizens. they know that government does not reflect the type of people actually living in the country, and are really very hospitable towards western ex-pats (ex patriats) and tourists. also, I got to see first hand the condidtions people are living in in countries all over the middle east. you simply can't have an idea how brutally repressive these regimes are unless you've seen it first hand, it's absolutely sickening. I can't tell you how much I feel for the people living under those regimes (i luckly escaped this, living on an american base). another thing that you really notice is how militant the countries in that region are. if you think the united states is over the top with gun ownership, you'd be shocked. Around my elementary school there were heavily armed guards (AKA-47 assault rifels usually) accompanied by trained bomb-dectecting dogs. and this was around an elementary school, plus the 10 foot tall concrete barriers to stop truck bombs. outside the complex, there were heavily armed checkpoints with more armed guards to make sure the right people got in and out of the complex. now of course all this security was implemented by the american military, but it was very reflective of the type of environment. outside the complex, the mall security was equipped with AKA-47 assault rifels (they seemed to like those) and it was very rare for the men not to own and/or carry guns. of course the women have absolutely no rights whatsoever, to the point where its absolutely disgusting. living there was basically like living in another universe, so needless to say it was really difficult for me to adjist back to life in canada after we moved. the reason we moved was pretty much because my parents got antsy after the Kobar towers were bombed in 1996. Al-Kobar, a city about 15 minutes away fro the complex where I lived, had a huge apartment complex (accross the street from my dad's office building) which housed hundreds of american soldiers (and soldiers from other counrties) still there from the gulf war. terrorists targeted these towers (i'm pretty sure it was an al-queda cell) and over a hundred people were killed. it was the scariest day of my life coming to school the next morning and hearing nothing but "did you hear the bomb go off last night?" anyways, that's pretty much my childhood, (which for all the uglyness i've described was actually really great). kinda rambled a bit, but hey, couldn't help myself. (now i'm really screwed for homework, looks like another night with very little sleep for me).

lol jibber I know what you mean about the lack of sleep DAMN YOU MUSIC BANTER YOU WILL BE THE END OF ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God, I try to avoid this but I can't.

You say that America holds a great deal of shares of the oil corporations...so why would we attack Iraq for more oil? The whole oil part of things is what pisses me off. In the end, if we don't turn the oil wells back over to Iraqi companies than I will talk of my mistake, until then, it's a hushed topic.

Second, I truly don't see how any AMERICAN can have sympathy for the Iraqis. The same Iraqis who were dancing in the streets of Baghdad after the 9/11 bombings. Remember, that was the act of war which got everything started. But I guess that is Bush's fault for not jumping in front of the plant?

Third, you guys jump on my back like I'm a Bush fanatic. I truly don't think his presidency is a great one. But when I look on things, I can say that I believe he has handled things better than (in my opinion) Kerry, Gore, or even Nader would have. The one thing people need to notice, Terrorism is not a Crime, It is an Act of War. Gore would treat it like crime, just as Kerry would, arresting those who did it and punishing them. What Bush has done, and what you might disagree with, is that he has put the Terrorists on the defensive. Anyone see terrorist attacks on US Soil recently? No, they have the terrorists trying to protect themselves.

I agree, it is hard to see how everything is going now, and eventually we will see when everything "pans out" in the end. I don't think you can judge the actions of Bush now, but much later down (15-20 or so years). I'm gonna try my hardest not post again, because I can see this as you not wanting to change your point of view, and me not willing to change mine.

The thing you have to understand is that Iraqi's arent the terrorist and I dont know how in the world we got this image of Iraqi terrorist. The reason terrorist are in the country now is because they see a killing frenzy and they are joing in by killing Americans and trying to get as much propaganda as possible. This war has done more for terrorism then against it. The terrorist arent on the defense. You cant beat terrorism, hardly. All they do is go lay low while bombs drop and hide. How can you fight an invisible enemy. They arent on defense they are still waiting as much as they were before september 11th. We have a new terrorist alert now. Are we winning? Iraqis dancing in the streets. Well just because a handful of Iraqis are dancing in the street (also take note that Saddam was in power and he forced people to do such demonstrations) doesnt make them terrorist. Alot of people thought the US deserved such a punishment. We dont recognize the stuff we do until people lash out, thats our problem and then we are blinded and fight back and kill random innocent people and then we get more terrorism. Thats the problem.

I'm not gonna say that all Iraqi's are terrorists, but to say that Iraq wasn't housing terrorists, nor supporting them, is a joke. And truly, no one will know whether it is a good decision until later on down the road.

So if we dont know till later on, your saying we are going in blindly and guessing at the outcome. Hehe, ok, great defense. You dont have any proof they housed terrorists and supported them. Its not a joke, I am serious too. Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iran, those countries have proven links to terrorism and we didnt do anything about them. So I dont understand where your coming from or what facts you have to prove your link and claim.

Where is your proof that they didn't. You are going blindly saying that this will be a terrible outcome. A lot of things are based on belief and on the final outcome. Hate to sound like Makaveli, but the ends justify the means.

Ok alejo you cant criticize Iraq for housing terrorists unless you can tell me one country that doesn't, and please dont say America, I dont like laughing so hard that I vomit!!

LOL, thats so great dude. Hates down for u. Exactly, you cant say what you said alejo. Even Canada harbors terrorist.

I would have no problem bombing Canada. TIC. All countries do have problems with harboring terrorist. The problem is when countries, often Middle Eastern, support the terrorists and don't really mind them in their countries. They provide them with goods, and help them out. Your trying to twist words again. You guys all hopped aboard the "anybody but bush" bandwagon, which is fine. Most of you are probably not even old enough to vote, so it doesn't matter. Others are probably going on the opinions of their parents. My parents are democrats, but that's not what I go by. The thing is, I gurantee if a Republican President (other than Bush) did not go into Iraq, you guys would be complaining about how he is making a mistake. Again, the ends will justify the means.

I am almost out of energy because of how much info it takes to make u understand. First of all, about bombing Canada, your an idiot if you have no problem bombing any country. Shut up if you going to be stereotypical, ruthless, or/and ignorant. I am not twisting words, you are. Just because you dont make sense and dont support things with much facts doesnt mean we are trying to change what you say and even if we do, its a great debating strategy to spin things. Anything but Bush, no obviously not, I dont want no Saddam ruling me, but I am not stupid or a sheep and I dont want no dumb ass ruling me either (hence Bush). I am old enough to vote, but I wouldnt because I am not American, but live here anyways. Opinions of my parents, of course not. I am a radical socialist, my parents are on the otherside of the fence. Republicans are fundamentally wrong, but I dont mind the smaller gov. thing, I just dont think its the right time to evolve to something better like that. To have anarchy, if its possible, you need to come and start on a common ground of equality. Destroy the master, thats the opposite of American capitalist with the corporate elite. I am probably not going to post any more because your just plain stupid. I dont even read all my posts because they contain so many facts that they hurt your hardheaded head, lol. Later.

Arrrg alejo man dont you get it there are more types of terrorism than just the kind you see on CNN every night political terrorism is thriving and supported right here in America bro I mean come on open up your eyes and we have supported radical terrorism in the past too, John Brown is all I need to say about that! And dont you dare say that I would be complaining if we didnt go to Iraq I am not some dumbass who just protests for the sake of protesting I have beliefs that arent mass produced it is really something you should look into!!!!!!

Sorry, I'm used to posting on other boards. TIC is the same as just kidding. So calm down. Brokenhearts, I was trying to make sense of your post, but it all just ran together, no periods or anything, and I didn't know where you wanted me to place them, so I'll just pretend I never saw it.

So at least you admit that you were probably gonna go against anything Bush did in the first place. It's people like you that are so BIASED against ideas that piss me the **** off.

Shadowsniper, you said I am "hardheaded". Yeah, I'm sure you are old enough to vote, last time I heard that one was probably in elementary school. "Anarchy" is a great mother ****ing idea. You dult, you had good facts until you start bringing that stuff up. You said you are almost out of energy, well I AM out of energy, it's like talking politics with my dog.

whoa whoa whoa cowboy lets slow down there!!!! You are obviously just set in place as strong as any of us so lets not go accusing others of being dumb because they dont listen to what we have to say.

I've been trying to stay out of this, because it's really pretty exhausting feeding you verible fact after verible fact and have you either completely ignore them or fail to undertsand the importance of meaning behind them, but I'll try one last time. US corporations have a HUGE number of shares in the oil business in Saudi Arabia, and recieves a HUGE amount of its oil supply from there as well (I wont say the majority, because the majority of the US's oil supply actually comes from Canada, surprise surprise, you learn something new every day). However, the United States is one of those countries in perpetual want of more income, and more control, meaning they (and by they I am refering to many administrations, not just Bush) will often go to great lengths to secure shares in the major industries of many other nations. The reason the US would want more control over the world's oil supply is simply this, because we (and by we I mean the developed world as a whole, Canada included, but the US is the worst in the group) are a pretty spoiled and greedy culture. 1/5 of the world's population is using up 4/5 of the worlds energy supplies, and the majority of that is used up by the US, and don't even try to say it's because you need more of it to support your population, that argument just doesn't wash, if you need an explanation why, ask for it and I'll give it to you, not right now though. Your second point, beides being a snide remark and most likely a hidden message for "foreigners" to keep out of american politics (judging by AMERICANS being emphasized) was completely ignorant and stereotypical. No one in the free world has any feelings of sympathy whatsoever for the animals who paraded the US soldier's bodies through the streets, or celebrated the deaths of innocent americans, but those people are not the majority of iraqi's. The majority of iraqi's are caught up in a devastating and extremely violent war i which they had nothing to do with, the majority of iraqi's are innocent civilians forced to live their lives in terror over reasons for which there was no evidence nor verifyable support. These are the people that I have a great deal of sympathy for, and if you can't find any compassion for them within yourself, well then I feel truly sorry for you as well, you must lead a pretty bleak life. Your analyzation of the war on terror isn't too bad, except for one all important fact, Iraq had nothing, I repeat NOTHING to do with terrorist attacks on the United States, nor did it pose a threat in the future. I really feel sorry for the people who refuse to open their minds and realize that what Bush is doing is using fear as a campaign tool against his opponents. He has been creating false threats and false enemies in order to install mass hysteria and a consuming fear that if any other president is elected, the United States will face a sort of terrorist induced armageddon, which is utter lies. I doubt I will be posting much more in this thread, because I have argued my points with actual relative facts, and I have come to the conclusion that you are unable to give them a fair look, so it is basically useless. All I can hope is that by the time you are old enough to vote, you will have learned to open your mind enough to challenge your own opinions as often if not more often than the opinions of others.

I didnt know what TIC ment, so thankx. Biased? Everyone is, I tell it like it is though, I dont hide anything. Yes I think Republicans are fundamentally wrong, read what I said though and the reasons. Its explainable and I explained. So why am I biased? Because I explain why I believe something, dont really get how I am biased? Its not like your more of an angel with you thinking most Arabs are terrorist or that Iraq had WMD and that they supported Terrorism. Well good for you if you heard that in elementary school, instead of trying to think your the oldest one here, why dont you try to show that your the most mature here and the one who has the most wisdom and are actually knowledgable. I of course write like an elementary kid, maybe even a middle schooler. Please, I am in College. Stop trying to think your the biggest and baddest here. Republicans are going towards anarchy more so than a democrat, keep that in mind! I didnt say it was possible to have anarchy, I just said that it would be awesome if such a system would efficiently work. So your saying, you would rather have someone tell you what to do compared to someone not telling you what to do and leaving you live your life. Doesnt make sense to me, but ok. There is 2 extremes, anarchy and dictatorship of any type. Democracy is almost inbetween. Its dictatorship of the majority. I dont get your point... Your saying freedom that anarchy gives is not wanted? Even if you could take out the negative attached to it? Ok, believe that it cant happen is not the same as wanting some of the traites that anarchy gives. Dude, stop being such a conservative that when you hear the word communism or anarchy that u piss your pants and want to cry murder. Want to repeat the red scare? You would probably be one of those in New England accusing others of being witches.

I am glad your dog has such a nice vocabulary and higher intelligence that compares to mine. Thats cool, I wish I could buy one of those. Insults wont get you any where on here. Just makes you look childish. What ever though...

Ok you guys lets lay it out like this; Bush has proven to be nothing but a war hungry redneck that could care less what the common man thinks of him, as all republicans often do. He has done nothing for our economy and has only further isolated America from its counterparts in the middle east as well as other parts of the world. In retrospect Clinton did wonders for our economy but represented America in a less than favorable way. What I am trying to say is that when Alejo said that we would protest no matter what I think he was right in a way. He should have said that AMERICA would protest no matter what, but is it really our fault NO! It is our crappy leadership that has weakened our faith not only in government but also in our country. America has always been two faced no matter what party is in office, for example the Korean Conflict and Vietnam were both UN wars and both wars to end communism, but why is it that we didn't attack communism at its source but instead went after small factions in these countries? Because there were Russian leaders in command of the UN both times, we were taking commands from russians while fighting communism, now isnt that a little strange. As long as we allow our children to be dumbed down by our "great" public edu system, that Bush has contributed to, we will always be controlled by a crap government. But if we take action and educate ourselves on how an actual government should be run and how ours HAS been run then we wouldn't be debating this topic right now, so please people get a little background history before you debate and dont just take a side because that was what granpappy did!!!!!

Omg dude, you didnt just say that. I had some honor for you, but now you just lost it all. Are you tyring to say there are conspiracies? LoL, if there was any other factor why we didnt attack the USSR it would of been found by now by smarter people than all of us. Did you just for get about nuclear war? Yeah, lets just go throw our soldiers on foreign land called the USSR and expect them to win. Especially after Napoleon lost and Hitler. Lets not be stupid, the reason we attacked Vietnam was not because the UN told us! The French were there and they quit because America wouldnt help, but then the US comes in with guns blazing trying to impress the world and showing the French how it should be done. Korea was a UN war, but under an American general. He was also fired because he was crazy enough to almost go to war against not only China but the USSR all at once. He wanted to show the communist their "lesson". You know what, if we are so democratic, why dont we respect the decisions of others to have what type of government they want instead of us impossing democracy on them. It is always our fault, because we dont try to change and we vote for the lesser of 2 evils instead of the one we truely wish to vote for. We could reform our democratic process to be much better, but we dont. This debate is one sided because one side only appears to make sense, dont try to be the little middle man asking for peace and consessions from both sides, only one side has proven knowledgable and the other not. If your going to add to this debate, add some interesting facts, not some little unrecognized irrelevant facts. Anyways, peace for tonight, its late.

Yea pal you go watch your newscasts and believe every word you hear without hesitation and if I want to play peacemaker/middle man I sure as hell will this is a debate without a intermediate party its crap. These facts arent irrelavent either and America is so full of conspiracies that its sickening I could go on for days on things that can be tested and proved if somebody would just take the time, and dont talk down to me man I respect you and your socialist viewpoint now you have to respect me and my constitutionalist viewpoint

I respect your reply. You just sounded a bit hostile, thats all. No harm done though. Reply accepted anyways. Conspiracies arent proven though and debates are difficult as they are, it makes things alot harder to manage.

sorry if I came across as hostile I just have strong feelings about Politics and as with anybody I grow angered when they are mocked, but I suppose that is infantile so whatever lets try and remain decent and humane throughout

Jibber jibber jibber, how can you call it facts when you are talking about Bush's point of views on things. That he wants more oil, that his administrators do. You have no idea what they want, but it is your speculation, or opinion, on the matter. You say something about a Terrorist armageddeon, but I've never heard Bush say anything about that. So is he lieing, or maybe you?

Those animals, which I agree with you calling them that, are the people we, as in the American military, are searching for. These animals are being housed by the innocent civilians, with a majority probably with their free will. We are trying to take the fear out of the lives of the innocent people. A majority of people in Iraq will admit to being afraid of Hussein's rule in Iraq. We, using physical force, are trying to remove that fear, and it has turned out to be more difficult than expected. Yet the situation is not yet done, and I have confidence that my government will end up helping those people. I may be wrong, but so could you.

Actually, Iraq had the plants for WMD, testing facilities, and the long range missiles (which they weren't supposed to have by Guidelines). So yeah, I would say I believe that Iraq had WMD and I also believe that Iraq supported terrorist. Funny thing is, I believe that UN countries supported Iraq AFTER the UN bannings. There were missiles found to be from Russia in Iraq, one's that they weren't supposed to have, that had been shipped after the bannings took place. Keyword is after, I ALREADY KNOW that we helped them during their conflict with Iran.

....Because Democrats want millions of social programs completely paid for everyone in the country yet funded almost completely by the 5% of people in the United States. That's right, 95% of taxes are paid by 5% of the people in the US. Yet people get so angry when there are talks of the high income people getting tax breaks.

To have an impact on the economy ,it takes a couple years for your actions to have an ACTUAL impact. Didn't seem as Clinton's did much, as the early years of Bush's reign were the bad years of the economy. The economy is actually on a slight rise within the past year. And yeah, you are right about representing in a less than favorable way. Getting sucked off in the Oval Office isn't the greatest idea.

The first time I've agreed with Shadowsniper all thread. Conspiracies are the most retarded thing ever. But I have to say, the whole think about Napolean invading the USSR is kinda pointless, comparing the two. Technology different, ways of getting supplies are different, and even more big differences. Not a good comparision.

AHHH, this forum is annoying, I wrote big reply that was mostly agreeing with you. It went away and asked me to sign in, WTF! Anyways, I am going to summerize. Thats true about the cold Russian atmosphere not really mattering that much nowadays. The world has become much smaller with globalization and technology has aided us in conquering new ground that was previously hard to even get too. I still think the cold posses a threat in war and training can really change the tide of war. Saying this, Russians live in this environment and are more accustomed to it. Hence its easier for them. Now on to WMD, I dont see which ones your talking about. yes there were some illegal weapons. WMD, I haven heard. What chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons have you heard about in Iraq? The labs they thought they found were not what they originally said they were. They were used for farming. I want to know what ur talking about, havent heard. Later.

alejo, this will be my last reply. go back and look at my other posts. i've stated countless facts and statistics. my interpretation of why bush wanted to go to war was an interpretation, based on facts and a very good understanding of the situations. I'll say this one last time. go back, and actually read mine and shadowsniper's posts with an open mind. I've stated all I need to say, and I've gotten tired of writing out verifyable facts only to have them ignored. keep on debating if you want, but as far as i'm concerned, this topic has exhausted itself.

Your facts are flushed with opinions Jibber, and that's why it's hard to decide which are solid facts and which are facets of your imagination.

Shadow, I agree that cold weather would have an impact on a War, but with technology, if you were just trying to destroy, takeover, a country, you would not use land troops. That is why I think we are in a sense, trying to look out for the Iraqi people. If a takeover is what we planned, why not bomb it to nothing, then just go get our oil. We haven't, we have tried to preserve.

The WMD's I am talking about are human testing labs for biological and chemical weopons, where they tested on people. Also, all the materials and plans for nuclear boms. SCUD missiles, and many other illegal weapons they had but was not paid attention to by our "biased" media. But I do know what you are talkin about with the farming labs. I did not mean those.

The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread
 

I came across this little thing today that counts the cost of the war in Iraq, and compares it to other things we could be helping with that money.

http://costofwar.com/index.html

As of me posting right now the cost of the war in Iraq is: $116,103,443,003

It compares it to:
PRE-SCHOOL

KIDS' HEALTH

PUBLIC EDUCATION

COLLEGE SCHOLARSHIPS

PUBLIC HOUSING

WORLD HUNGER

AIDS EPIDEMIC
WORLD IMMUNIZATION

Here is the code to put it on your site:

woah...thats one of my main oppositions to this war, how much its costing us and how all that money could have been spent on something useful. i do wonder wtf bush is thinking at times...

makes ya feel all warm and fuzzy inside huh?

Bush doesnt think, his underlings do that for him.

I think before the world goes anyfurther with ANYTHING. We should make sure that everyone is living a good environment, is fed, is educated, has rights, is healthy, etc.

I mean we have enought problems as it is. Why do we have to f*ck things up even more...constantly..

The cost of freedom. It seems to have increased with technology. We use the smart bombs to try to keep them away from civilians, but maybe we could have saved a few bucks and just nuked all of Iraq?

Whoa whoa whoa, right now, if you have the desire to become educated in the US, you can become educated. It's a matter of will. I'm not saying our schools are great, nor do they force feed us information, but if you want to be educated you can. Most everyone has rights, unless you are a convicted felon, etc. Healthy? Bush did a medicare overhaul costing $200 million which many people complained costed too much. Make sure everyone is fed, hell, why doesn't Bush just wipe their ass. People don't work during college, high school, and then expect for everything to be done for them.

Hmm.

Would it be fair to say, that maybe if the war in Iraq had achieved more with the money it costed, than it would if the money was spent on say, AIDs research, then it would be justified?

I really don't know what to think about this, except that maybe, just maybe, there was a cheaper, less violent way to solve the problems in that country.

EDIT: Christ, as of me posting the cost is now $116,509,529,308. That's almost 400 million dollars between this post and the first...

Please, money is being spent on research. But Congress and President Bush both believe that the war on Iraq is important enough to be spending this kind of money on the war. These are the people we voted into office, whether it be the President or your Congressmen, and if you didn't vote, it now gives you a reason to.

so naiive...
not everyone has the chance to get a good education, even in the US. High school, ya i'll agree with you there. but so many people drop out becasue they're needed at home, or they can't live at home, so they're forced to leave, live on the streets, shelters, wherever they can. Even if you are lucky enough to be born into a fimly who has the means to send you to a decent high school, and actually support you through those years, what then? it's hard to get a good job nowadays without a degree of some sort, be it university, technical college, whatever. but that's simply not possible for a lot of people. the fact of the matter is, education costs money, and there's still hundreds of thousdands of people who don't have the means or the opportunities to make something happen for themselves. Thinking that all you need to be successful is determination and a good work ethic is incredibly naiive, not to mention pretty ignorant.

LOL you completely changed what you said. So I'm going to quote what you originally posted.

LOL again! You do amuse me sir. Clearly you neglected to notice the rather obvious section of the site that boldly explains where they got their information from - then you saw it, realised how much of a twat you look, and changed your post COMPLETELY.

I don't mean to sound rude, but someone who can make that sort of mistake isn't going to be someone I'll take voting advice from.

Also, I am fully aware that money is being spent on research. Just not enough - my point was that if they spent that money on research, even MORE could be done.

ok heres what i think. we as americans should stick george dubua bush out in irag just so he can see what he is doing to our family and friends. i hope kerry wins the election. this is so reddiculous.

Or alternatively, how about we just overthrow GWB and end the war in "irag"?

(LOL sorry, I just had to do it) :D

Just imagine all the neat stuff that we'd be able to do with the money... (You could start with getting me a new computer! This thing bites.)

Hmmm...What has Kerry done that has gotten you so confident in him? I changed my post (that's why I edited it...durr) because I went to the site because I am willing to do research based on sites/info you guys put up. That countdown is set on a set total
Congress made and is set to reach that total on a certain date. But one thing I was wondering, which was not in their information, is that is that money additional to our normal military spendings on bombs, ship repairs, etc. Because I do believe it is. And Jibber, living in the United States, whether you are financially able or not, if you have the drive to get an education, you CAN get an education. Opportunities are available, night school, etc. Student loan systems.

When people are needed at home, they don't have the time to get an education. How is that the government's problem? Maybe they should just go and pay the parents who a)probably didn't try to get an education when they were younger or b) are too lazy to get a job.

How do you think those shelters are paid for? Miracles? No, the government strikes again. People take so many things for granted, this government provides everything. Yet they complain.


All in all...I'm tired of hearing people complain about our president who was elected by our people to run office. If you have a problem, go out and vote, be the voice of america. It's a beautiful thing. People want money spent on research, money spent on this, and money spent on that. I'd love to see the taxes you people pay. Probably jack****. I don't pay much, but then again, I don't complain about how tax dollars get spent. Until Bill Gates starts demanding he wants research done on African Monkeys for AIDS, I am fine with how the money is being spent. And if you are not, shut the **** up, go out to the polls, and do something about it when November rolls around.

It's not what he's done, it's what he hasn't done that bush has, and what he doesn't like about bush that we don't like. We feel solidarity with the guy because he considers Bush to be a total moron. Opportunism or not, he's the only person to support.

You changed your post because you realised that you're a dumb **** that doesn't do his research before he opens his big wide mouth.

So in other words, it's based on estimates for the end cost, and is counting up to that end cost. Either the end of this war is very near, or the end cost will be absolutely huge.

It's the entire cost of war. Bombs, ships, tanks, missles, ammo, men, food, diesel, water, aviation fuel, uranium rods, grenades, clothing, armor, nightvision, power generators, trucks, maintenance, explosives, etc. etc. etc.

So what you're telling me is that, you can get an education no matter who you are? Bull****. Schools can turn you down, you may be unable to move to go to try other areas for their schools, you might be unable to pay off the student loans... and so on.

I don't see what's wrong with the government giving money to parents that cannot leave home to go to work but need the money to support themselves. It's known as childcare benefits and it's already in existance.

The majority of the homeless shelters are run, payed for, and owned by completely independant charity organisations. I've LIVED IN ONE before, and anyone else who has ever had to use one will tell you that there isn't enough government funding going into these charities.

You may be tired of hearing it, but it doesn't make the complaining wrong. As a US citizen, or member of the human race, you have every right to complain about a world leader.

The majority of us here probably aren't even old enough to vote. I'm not. But I will when I am old enough.

Yes because there is not enough being spent on it. They could do the job they need to if more money was put into it, and this is what people do not realise. Simply pumping some random figure into a goverment sector or independant research foundation is not good enough, the goverment need to meet their demands for funding.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the taxes are based on how well off you are - so that the poor don't pay as much in taxes as the wealthy. So what you are actually insinuating here (intended or not) is that we're probably poor.

LOL. Well I don't see what the problem is with complaining about how the government is spending YOUR money. It's not like we're whinging about what brand of cigarrette George Dubya smokes.

OK. Well we're not.

We are doing things about it. We become members of charities, we donate money, we petition the goverment for more funding. And those of us that care enough about things use our vote to support the things that we care about. But I do not see the sense in just shutting the hell up between here and november. Voting is not the zenith of political problem solving.