The Bitch Box

~~jwb~~ · 02-20-2021, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Just fully numb yourself to what you hate about being an underling so that the overlords let you live, I don't see what's so hard to understand here.

the overlords don't give a **** whether you numb yourself or not lol

And you can't choose to numb yourself

You know what numbs people? Consistent exposure to pain.

The numbness is a natural defense mechanism. Its a psychological immune system.

**Frownland** · 02-20-2021, 11:24 PM

idk why you're trying to debate me, I was helping you make your point at elphenor

~~jwb~~ · 02-20-2021, 11:27 PM

I wasn't trying to debate you or elph I was clarifying my position

For someone who never dares to actually try to enter into a debate seriously you are strangely competitive

**Marie Monday** · 02-21-2021, 03:34 AM

jwb's description of the average life is true though, and I think it's one of the most profound human problems. I don't think it's entirely fair to say people expect to be happy: it's just that in modern times people actually have come to a point where they question their existence to an extent that they ask themselves if their life is worth living without more happiness and fulfillment. And the answer is often depressingly close to 'no'.

I also think it doesn't help that modern society claims to be egalitarian to keep poor people at peace, without actually being so. Throughout history, class distinction was much more obvious and rigid, so if some aristocrat had a better life people were like 'yea that's how it is', but if there's this claim that everyone is equal while some people have a much better life, you'll ask yourself 'why not me?'.

I do think it's sensible to try to seek fulfillment in the small things in life, coping with reality isn't necessarily resigning to it. I really don't think jwb was trying to defend this reality, just doubting whether we can ever give the average person the fulfilling life they'd like. Which I agree with, even though I think we should try.

~~jwb~~ · 02-21-2021, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

"And nah you're working to survive. Your life is probably way easier than trying to hunt game with ****ing spears and bows and arrows."

this is where you basically say "just be thankful"

as if there's no alternative except return to Monkee

no. It's not a matter of being thankful. It is what it is. You either cope or die.

~~jwb~~ · 02-21-2021, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

well his description of the attitudes towards labor in the past isn't really historical...it's just a narrative

a more critical look would reveal a whole swath of different ideas on what work ought to be

for example, when rural workers were forced into specialized factory work, there was quite a lot of resentment on the grounds that it was dehumanizing and not much better than slavery

the fact that it relatively increased their wages was not enough to prevent anger at being stripped of autonomy

so much so that you find it even in the mainstream politics of the time, that wage slavery had to be addressed

I didn't actually say anything about historical "attitudes" towards labor. But if you want to be real about it, people have often resented any sort of change and so sure maybe agrarian farmers resented industrialization. But most of us wouldn't opt to go back to an agrarian lifestyle if given the choice. And to some extent you do have that choice. Agrarian communes do exist. Most people aren't willing to unplug from modern society and embrace that sort of lifestyle. Just like our ancestors, we have become accustomed to a certain lifestyle. Such is life.

I don't day anything of this to say we can't possibly get rid of wage slavery etc in the future. Just that doing so... That will be the actual deviation from the norm of what the human condition is like. That would be an even more drastic change in the human condition than the invention of agriculture and the industrial revolution combined. I'm not as optimistic about the inevitability of this transformation happening if we live long enough... But it do agree it's worth pursuing.

Psy-Fi · 02-21-2021, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss

Just a medium sized rant:

Ok so I'm on my 4th employee here in Malaysia, first I hired a trainee fresh out of college practically, seeing as how difficult it is for such people to find jobs with no experience (I was also miraculously hired straight out of college so wanted to give something back to the universe), turned out a bust, no effort, very passive, loads of mistakes, little to no prospect of improvement. Had to let her go after two probation periods. Second batch I said, no more trainees thanks, I'd rather not bother training someone from scratch, let's go for someone more experienced, so I hired someone with 10 years of experience (as a senior) and a medium experience person with some 5-6 years of experience. The junior person did her very best, was super professional, showed up on time, was willing to learn. She had some problems, but made up for it with effort. The senior person was the total opposite, showed up late, wasn't at her desk for hours at a time, kept receiving packages from online shopping at work, didn't finish her tasks on time, left for vacation without finishing or transferring her tasks, was making a lot of mistakes and didn't really know how to do things independently, even though she was supposed to be a senior (and her salary was of a senior). So I let her go after 2 probationary periods (she is now suing us for wrongful dismissal even though she was on a probation period, lol).

Then the junior quit because she found a better job and I had to find a replacement. I didn't feel like going through another recruitment process so the MD suggested someone who was already there, from another department that moved away and now they were struggling to find work for her and he didn't feel it was right to let her go so soon after hiring her. I was a bit wary since this was a person who was already on a permanent basis so no probationary period but I interviewed her and she seemed enthusiastic and smart.

3 months later, we are having problems. She is making stupid mistakes that I keep having to correct (and she never says ok, sorry about that, I'll make sure to pay more attention in the future). But a bigger problem for me and something I just can't understand is the work ethic. We are all forced to work from home so obviously it's not the same as being in the office but we are also all equipped with computers and messenger apps (Teams). So obviously, if I send you a message or an e-mail and you respond several hours later, I know you were not at your laptop working. This happened more than once (and of course, she never says, sorry I was [invent an obvious lie but at least try to justify it]).

Now, I don't want to be an *******, so I don't want to say anything about it for now, but I'm just wondering, what kind of person behaves like this? Not just the last one, but 3 out of 4. If you're hired on a good job, with a good salary in a good and stable company, isn't your primary focus to do everything possible to keep that job? I don't ask for much, really, just that someone shows they're at least trying and are taking things seriously. I just don't understand what could possibly be going through their minds. If my boss calls me I make sure I am available morning noon and night. Why? Because I not so much like my job as much as my salary and the roof over my head and I know that finding another job like this especially in these times is going to be extremely difficult, so I make sure that I do everything in my power for them to have a great difficulty in letting me go.

I don't understand why everyone doesn't think/act the same way. I thought maybe they come from well off families but it's not the case.

I am mystified.

I've heard it said that prostitution is the world's oldest profession and I'll wager that the saying "good help is hard to find" is every bit as old.

adidasss · 02-21-2021, 07:06 AM

^^ You said it brother...

~~jwb~~ · 02-21-2021, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I don't think it would be much different from the shifts of the past slavery -> serfdom -> wage Labor

that's my whole point you typed it up as if thinking work is bull**** is a new phenomenon

but history is full of our ancestors boycotting work

you inferred that but I never was saying that.

You said we aren't working to survive. I was saying we are. Yes people get surplus wealth off your labor too but the real consequence of you deciding not to work it's you starve, not them.

I never implied not liking work was something new. I said quite explicitly that not wanting to work but having to do so anyway is and was the default human condition.

Anteater · 02-21-2021, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

The point is that if generations hadn't built the capitalist apparatus you use to benefit yourself you'd have nothing. You use the labor of others and pretend it is your own so that you can claim glory entirely for yourself even though you are just like anyone else who uses the work of your fellow man to lift yourself alongside each other but in a system that tells you to pretend otherwise and steal credit.

And? That's how foundations and legacies work. You try to do something in the hopes that someone ahead of you doesn't necessarily have to step into every pothole you did.

I dunno why you and others constantly try to make this some kind of moral issue when it's just human life in a nutshell - everyone takes advantage of whatever good someone else established at a previous point in time, whether that's a technological innovation or anything else you take for granted. None of us start from zero or in a vacuum. I've never taken credit for the work that others around me have done. If I make a sale, I get credit for making that sale happen because I'm the one who prospected the opportunity, brought the conversation to a certain point and then established the terms and conditions to move ahead on whatever the deliverable is. I didn't make some lackey do that work for me.

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02-20-2021, 11:24 PM	#24452 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,548	idk why you're trying to debate me, I was helping you make your point at elphenor __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

02-21-2021, 07:06 AM	#24458 (permalink)
adidasss Slavic gay sauce Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Abu Dhabi Posts: 7,993	^^ You said it brother... __________________ “Think of what a paradise this world would be if men were kind and wise.” - Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle. Last.fm

02-20-2021, 11:27 PM	#24453 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	I wasn't trying to debate you or elph I was clarifying my position For someone who never dares to actually try to enter into a debate seriously you are strangely competitive