I dunno. I guess it depends on how you define emotional instability. Usually when I think of the word "unstable" I think someone who could just f*cking snap and while women have a reputation for being moody it's very rare that women get picked up by cops for smashing someone's face into a sidewalk which for a lot of guys is just a typical tuesday.

And another reason why I like being a girl. I'm pretty happy with the fact that one day my other half and I will start a family and that I will be the one seeing it through, physically. I'll be the one to feel it move and feel it's first kick (Kind of feel sorry for my partner a little tbh). Having sat through my sisters two horrific labours with her, knowing the pain I'll go through still doesn't even bother me because it's insignificant to what's to come.

It may be corny as hell, but for me, being the one to have the opportunity to actually physically bring a life into the world is the best bit about being female.

Man, I am broody as fuck :laughing:

As for the points bought up earlier about having to shave and having to wear make up, I don't feel that I have to, but I do it because I want to. It just feels.... Nice. It's very rare I'll leave the house without at least some mascara on (I'm lucky enough that my hair is short and curly so actually needs NO tending to at all, giving more time on concentrating on not poking myself in the eye with eyeliner), but strangely, I'll willingly walk to the shop in my pyjamas. I'm too lazy to get dressed to go and buy a newspaper, but God forbid I make my PJ trek to the shop with no make up on!

^ I've never thought of it that way, but the way you put it puts it into a completely different perspective. Child birth is something I dont really think about, seeing as I dont currently have plans to be getting pregnant. But the way you talk about it makes it sound really rather lovely. Its very sweet. :)

Very funny. :p:
Actually, that could very well be, and it's a good point to ponder.
Again, it was something I had read in studies regarding oxytocin.

It's not corny and you're not broody. :) I agree with you. Having my kids was the best thing that ever happened to me. Even with the physical pain of childbirth, the worry about them over the years (I'm a big worrier!), the challenges of divorced single parenthood - it has all been worth it and I would go through it all ten times over.

I remember seeing a study where they tested lab rats by injecting hormones that men and women feel into the rats and seeing how they respond. The female rats were much more susceptible to hormonal imbalance than the male rats. Like, the male rats' reactions to high testosterone levels were nowhere near as severe as the female rats' reactions to female hormone levels. It was a really interesting study, I wish I could find it on the net but I can't.

It's a trap.

Yeah pregnancy is not lovely.

Despite that I still don't think women are inherently more likely to have serious emotional problems than men. Harmonal balance is just one aspect of it.

I have to agree with Ribbons that the human condition is equally miserable for everyone. But still the likelyhood of a guy deciding that a great way to start the day is to shoot up a mall full of people with an uzi is greater than if a women were to do the same thing. Women may have an issue with balance but they seem to be better at coping with stressful and painful life conditions than men.

Women wisely don't try to bottle up their emotions, men do and that's what makes them go apesh*t.

Well it's lovely AFTER it's done and over with.

Just not during the actual process.

I've always known what i ultimately wish to have and thats quite a traditional family life. I want a wife and kids, basically. Ive always found quite a maternal instinct in women to be attractive and i love to hear women who think this way when it comes to giving birth. I dont think all women should be expected to feel this way or anything and i know im a guy so my opinion doesnt really count as alot of what you girls have to endure and sacrifice to have children is not something i will ever have to experience personally but i think its great to hear a woman say that she almost considers it a privelidge rather than a hinderence and i dont think its corny one little bit.

Then why are depression and other mental disorders significantly more common in women?

That's from Gender differences in unipolar depression: An update of epidemiological findings and possible explanations. Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavica. 2003;108(3):163–74. doi:10.1034/j.1600-0447.2003.00204.x. PMID 12890270.

I'm not saying that women suffer more than men, I think that both genders suffer equally and in different ways, it's just interesting that depressive and emotional disorders are statistically more common in women and that perhaps hormonal imbalance has some kind of bearing on it and the fact that women do have to deal with regular hormonal craziness.

EDIT: Yes, you are completely correct in that it is probably true that the likelyhood of a guy deciding that a great way to start the day is to shoot up a mall full of people with an uzi is greater than if a women were to do the same thing. Because testosterone levels can promote aggression in males. But that kind of aggressive and violent impulsivity is not the only form of emotional instability. Aggression is not the only emotion... there is sadness, depression, anxiety, self-esteem issues, etc... both genders experience these differently.

It's also interesting that you say despite having these hormonal instabilities women are better at coping with them in life... because successful suicide attempts are more common in men than women. Women attempt suicide more, but often it is a cry for help rather than a choice to end their life. While emotional disorders are more common in women, they choose to be strong and deal with it rather than end their life. Someone suggested it's because women have great responsibilities in their lives such as their children and family who they don't want to abandon. It's pretty interesting looking at the statistics though.

Maybe it's just because it's more reported with women? Men are much less open about their emotional problems.

All I'm really saying is that regardless of who is more likely to have mental issues, women are less likely to act on psychotic impulses and at least compared to men exhibit better self control. They're more likely to sob at a funeral sure but I don't think simply being very emotional is being ubstable. That's actually pretty healthy.

Also stuff like harmonal changes is a biological/mood thing. I'm talking more specifically about mental disorders like psychopathy, a total lack of empathy. It's people with these problems who tend to be the most destructive and dangerous. And antisocial personality disorders are sigificantly more common with men.

I like being a girl. Of course there's the downsides like getting a period and bitching at people for no reason because if it. But overall I'm just fine with it. I have never felt inferior to men. I'm also happy that I have the opportunity to go to university, whereas years ago I probably would have been forced to marry young, have a family, and be a housewife. That's not the kind of life that I want!

I agree with you on the pregnancy thing. My parents were married for ten years before I was born (I'm the oldest - I have a younger brother). I remember my mom telling me that she couldn't wait to have a baby and go through that experience, but that she almost gave up after too many negative test results. I was the baby my parents thought they were never going to have.

I think pregnancy is beautiful and it's a natural occurence in the cycle of life. I'm sorry if you think otherwise, but remember this: a lot of women want to experience being pregnant but some of them may never have the chance because of fertility problems or other complications. It bothers me a little when people say that it's gross or whatever. Your mom went through it to give you life! And I'm not saying that every woman should have babies - that's a personal choice of course. It's great that women today can choose when/if they want to get pregnant by taking the pill. It doesn't protect you from STI's though!

About the makeup and shaving: I wear makeup and shave because I WANT TO. Not because it's the social norm for a woman. Wearing makeup is something that I do to make me look good and to let other people know that I take care of myself and I care about looking good and not like I just got out of bed. I don't wear a lot of makeup either - just some mascara, eyeliner, lipstick and occasionally some eyeshadow. But I don't cake it on like some women do. That just looks so cheesy, ugly, and a bit pretentious to me, like you're trying too hard to impress people.

I do think it would be interesting to be a man, if only for a day or something.

You know with all the really kooky type of feminists that give women a hard time because their legshaving is conforming to social stigma or whatever you never see a bunch of grizzly addams types who get pissed at men for shaving their beards off.

It's also against social stigma to cover yourself in poo so just because it's a popular belief doesn't mean it's a bad thing. And there's no point in bitching about it if some women actually do enjoy doing it, especially when you yourself clearly have the choice not to do it.

There's nothing wrong with self maintenance, it's not like women are the only ones who do it, men do too, women just do it a little more. But I think with both sexes it's not just about attracting mates, a lot of people male and female just like looking good for their own aesthetic pleasure.

I bet you're right, Men just think meh, I'm sad. Let's get on with it, Women are more open and feel like they need help.

Maybe it's due to alpha male stubbornness, the refusal to seek help. I bet loads of men suffer with depression in silence.

Exactly. And in the professional world, it helps a woman greatly if she wears a little makeup, fixes her hair and dresses nicely. The same thing goes for men (minus the makeup of course). Nobody would want to do business with a total slob!

Yeah, I agree completely. It's like the crazy feministas who criticise girls for wearing miniskirts or flesh-revealing clothing saying that they're going against women rights and presenting themselves as sex objects or whatever. Isn't that a step back in women's rights, back to the time where women weren't socially allowed to wear skirts above their knees and stuff? Women's rights should mean liberation and choice. A choice to shave your legs if you want to, or not shave them if you don't want to. To wear miniskirts and somewhat revealing clothes if you want to, or to be more conservative. Women should have choices but there are some hardcore feminists which I think try to promote having less choices which is bad.

And there is nothing wrong with personal maintenance. It's not just women that maintain their physical selves, men do too... It's one of the reasons why I hate the term 'feminist' because people just think of butch short-haired women who don't shave their legs or armpits or wear dresses.

There's also the stereotype that all feminists condone misandry - the contempt or hatred of men.

There's a reason I always add words like "radical" and "kooky" before "feminist" when I'm talking negatively.

Certainly not referring to feminists in general and as I stated way back on one of the first few pages, women who want to eliminate the distinctions between the sexes cuz they have hardcore penis envy are not true feminists.

In response to the original post: I am perfectly satisfied with being able to pee standing up, not having to shave in awkward places, not having to give birth, having fewer genital design flaws, etc etc etc

As far as depression goes, I would argue that they aren't. The degree to which women are more likely than men to suffer from what is described as depression is the same degree to which men are more likely than women to have substance abuse problems. Sounds to me like to different manifestations of the same problem.

I'm not sure what other mental disorders you're referring to, but I know schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are equally present in both sexes.

By that you're saying that all people who suffer from abuse problems have depression... which I don't think is necessarily true. I don't think they are manifestations of the same problem - mental illnesses are not all the same problem and are incredibly intricate and complex.

I probably should have clarified but I'm basically just talking about depressive and emotional disorders such as depression and bi-polar disorder - NOT other mental disorders such as abuse problems, addiction, anxiety, etc. I'm not saying that women suffer from every single mental disorder way more than men, but simply that research shows depression and other similarly Axis-grouped disorders are more prevalent in women. I just find this interesting, especially since it goes hand in hand with research on hormonal imbalances in men and women.

And I don't necessarily agree 100%, I just find it interesting that all surveys and research clearly indicate that emotional disorders such as the ones I have mentioned are more present in women. There are definitely a plethora of disorders which are more prevalent in men - I know from my work as an integration aide that autism, OCD, and often anxiety seem to be much more common in men. I probably should have not included the umbrella term of mental disorders in my statement, but honed in to the specifics.

Lol, what genital design flaws? :confused:

while I'm not disputing what you say, it does appear as if your talking of this from a guy's POV with the whole 'stud' and 'slut' terminology. and the only thing I have to add is you must remember that we're sleeping with the girls not the guys. obviously sleeping around is a bigger issue when you want to put your junk inside someone's when it's been around too many a-times. if a guy sleeps around, that's his choice not my problem. If a girl sleeps around, it'd be more a medical concern.

i don't speak for all guys either, but i definitely don't think 'stud' when i overhear a guy talking about getting laid every night. i'm more inclined to think douchebag

i hope you can make sense of what i'm saying, my mind isn't at its clearest right now, i'm a lil drunk... :thumb:

Again the kind of disorders that you seem to be bringing up are mood disorders.

I don't think any sane person would debate the fact that women are more moody. :laughing:

No I'm talking about mental/behavior disorders, and it's still uncertain what the true cause is. I believe that ASPD is 3 times more common with men. As in men are way more likely to become sadistic or narcissistic.

One antisocial disorder that is more common for women is histrionic personality disorder and all you gotta do is watch reality TV to know what that is. But that is something influenced from childhood experience I think, problems stemming from abuse or neglect. Either way it's something that's sad and annoying but people with this disorder aren't as cruel and horrifying as people with other types of antisocial disorders can be.

I didn't say all mental problems were the same. I was making a connection between two specific things: depression and substance abuse. I'm not the only person to make this connection. Don't you think it's a little odd that men allegedly have a lower rate of depression than women but have much higher rates of substance abuse and suicide? Couple that with the fact that men are raised to be more reticent about discussing their feelings and fairly obvious cause and effect situation becomes apparent.

But, as I mentioned previously, bipolar disorder is equally common in men and women.

yeh i was about to bring up the whole suicide thing. women are allegedly more likely to attempt it but men are more likely to succeed. kinda makes you question these so-called 'depression' diagnoses.

Yeah Lat said it's a cry for help and like I said attention seeking disorders are common with women.

This is a long post, even for me!

Yep, it is certainly true that there are phenotypic trends distinguishing the sexes, but still there is overlap: not all men are stronger than women; not all men have heavy facial hair, etc. I agree with you that it is nice when people, regardless of gender, advocate for each other to be whom they wish to be and don't put each other down.

If a pregnancy is wanted, then I think it is a beautiful thing, in a very physical, gritty, raw, bloody, and vomity way.;)

Liz! You're back! Since I never had strong menstrual pains before giving birth, labor pains were new to me...but you are right, I now realize they feel like strong menstrual pains.

You wondered what it was like to push out the baby. Actually pushing out my baby didn't feel too bad...after 24 hours of labor pains, the pushing part didn't feel more painful for me...and I think the baby's head kind of numbs you. For me, the pushing felt like trying to push out a BM. I had to force the baby out. It felt all voluntary; my uterus didn't seem to be contracting much on her (?) own. I pushed so hard that I ripped my own vagina...which is common, and it heals well after stitches.

Hmm...this last sentence may not encourage many people to experience childbirth!

Tore, this is very interesting, because I feel completely gender neutral, and my gender doesn't define me as a person to the very core of my being at all! The core of my being simply feels alive, neither male nor female.

I agree about enjoying being able to be the one who gets to grow the child, feel her/him move, etc. I tend to like to DO things, and I don't want to miss out. Also, giving birth made me feel very ALIVE, mortal, and yet also connected to all the mothers, and mothers' mothers (etc. etc.) down the tree of life.

"Broody." I can relate! I had a distinct "nesting phase." It was a warm, cosy time of my life, focused almost completely on the child I wanted to welcome into the world.

ABOUT WOMEN SHAVING:

Hmm...I doubt the majority of females would ever think of pulling a sharp metal blade over a vast surface of their body to cut off their hair if doing so weren't a social norm.

I would be interested, Tea Supremicist and Burning Down, to hear your opinions on why you shave if you stopped shaving, went out in public in shorts or a tank top, and experienced people's reactions to your leg and underarm hair (their stares, their cruel comments).

Maybe people in the UK and Canada don't react like they do in the U.S., but after facing ridicule as one does here, I think it would be hard for a woman to say she truly shaves because she WANTS to. Rather, I think she would admit that she shaves because she knows that if she doesn't, she will be ridiculed, and SHE HAS BEEN TAUGHT TO BELIEVE THAT HER BODY HAIR IS UGLY!!!!!! After all, if a woman LIKED her leg and underarm hair, would she shave it off? So, why doesn't she like it?? THAT'S the important question to answer.

Legshaving IS conforming to social stigma. If you were an unshaven woman going out in public, then you would KNOW this, boo hoo. ;)

Definitely, it is important for people to have choices. But when you claim that women shave simply as a positive "choice" and as personal "maintenance," when the alternative is to be mocked and viewed as hideous, while men can walk around with all their leg hair and no one bats an eye, the sexism of women shaving their hair should be obvious.

What I find sad about women shaving off their "unattractive" body hair as part of "personal hygiene" (when the same hair on a man is perfectly accepted) is that women become the instruments of their own oppression, even defending the practice...says the hairy feminist.

I wana be a lesbian.

The business about shaving and taking care of your appearance... people do it because it's the social norm, why's that a bad thing? It's the social norm for a reason..

It's not really social stigma, it's not like having hairy legs would cause a social outcry, it's just not considered attractive but so are a lot of things and with all the fetishes in the world surely you will find someone with a turn on for it.

I wouldn't say I'm being a conformist sheep just because I'm not attracted to unshaven legs, that's just how I feel, I know it's "natural" and all that but I just don't find it aesthically appealing and I consider it way too manly looking and yes I know that sounds bogus coming from someone with a domehead fetish.

But yeah I'm attracted to things like that which are considered freaky and bizarre by most of society and it's something I can never get anyone to understand. I understand what it's like not to fit in. But I don't think you're a bad person if you DO.

As I argued before I think it's an unfair generalization to say all women who shave their legs are being forced to do it, it's a personal choice. Yes it's a vital method in attracting males (and c'mon attracting mates via aesthetics is just animal instinct at work) but why is it a bad thing? Especially if they are satisfied with the results for both aesthetic and yes even comfort reasons?

Again there's nothing wrong with self maintenence, women just shave their legs for the same reason you maintain other parts of your body like hair or teeth or fingernails. You could play the "but guys have hairy legs" card sure but guys also have beards. I guess you could argue that it's unfair that men can be hairy but women are encouraged not to be hairy but I'm sorry, I conform to that view, granted I take it to it's greatest extreme. :D

If women really hated doing it and deemed it unnecessary I think they would make the same choice as you. As long as you aren't patronizing women who choose to shave their legs. If you're not tolerant of other people's choices you will never be able to eliminate social stigma, you'll only be able to replace it with another.

I'm content with being a guy. I like not having to deal with pregnancy, menstrual cycles, guys ogling me, higher standards for personal maintenance and the added emotional depth/sensitivity. On the other hand, I don't like that guys are discouraged from showing their emotions as it makes it hard for us to fully open up. I wouldn't confide in my best male mates about some things, but I wouldn't hesitate to approach most of my female friends on those same matters.

I find that I don't really connect with the brusque machoistic (is that even a word?) ideal of man or guys who live up to that... I find it obnoxious. Besides I'm quite quiet, pretty passive and I avoid competition/hostility. Not exactly a paragon of "alpha male dominance", not exactly womanly either :laughing:

I'm not fond of this attitude, you act like if women make the same choice as you that's the progressive choice and if women don't make that choice that's enabling sexism.

I think that's pretty ridiculous. As heterosexuals we are attracted to those who are different from us in appearance, I don't think establishing physical distinctions between genders is sexism. We just like to be a little different from another. To say some women only get satisfaction from legshaving because they were forced to think that way is an incredibly arrogant point of view. I mean have you seen Tea Supremacist? She's all punk and sh*t, not someone you can pigeon hole into your "sexism slave" category. Any point of view based around the idea of "if they don't share this belief something must be wrong with them" is stupid. It's moral imperialism.

I sympathize with you if you have been ridiculed a lot for your appearance but it's something you chose to do and it's naive to make such condescending assumptions about women for simply not making the same choice. You choose to reveal your hairy legs and isn't that just a plead for attention? And do you not just want other women to join your cause so you won't be alone?

It seems like you're trying to guilt trip other women into your belief system by using the false dilemma fallacy.

There are a lot of civil rights issues women have to do deal with but you're always going after this specific issue for personal reasons and it's such a trivial subject. It's an act of personal maintanence and it's a personal choice just as guys growing beards like Rick Rubin is a personal choice but we'd get ridiculed for that too that doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't have a Rick Rubin beard is "part of the problem".

Just because people ridicule you for choosing not to do it doesnt equate to sexism because men and women alike are considered undesirable if they don't do certain things, like if we don't keep ourselves sexually presentable, but this is truly the case for both sexes. We just happen to associate women with cleanliness and smooth legs is part of that concept, but it's something most women embrace so what's the problem? Should they be FORCED to go grizzly addams just because a few women don't like it? Women who have a choice of their own anyway? Isn't it just easier to do what you wanna do and not give a crap about what other people think about you? If you're SO devoted to being different in the first place why take other people's opinions about you so personally?

Seriously, when you're gonna do something that's very different from what most people do you're gonna get made fun of, that's just the way it is. But telling the world that they need to adapt to your world view is pretentious, are you for sure that isn't the reason people pick on you?

Instead of forcing your beliefs on others, the next time someone calls you Sasquatch legs tell them to f*ck off, problem solved.

I mean if you're so devoted to defying beauty conventions then why is this the one that's so important? Hair is also a part of social stigma and conformity is it not but you still have your hair, so by your logic women can only be truly free if they shave their heads right? Well guess what. Just because I think a planet of bald chicks would be kickass doesn't mean I have the right to try and convince women that hair is bad. I dig my thing and everyone digs theirs and that's just fine.

Unfortunately for me, in the area I live in I don't really conform to the 'correct' image anyway. With the tattoos, weird haircuts and general attitude I have I'm commonly known around here as 'that dyke' or (my personal favourite) 'that freak'. I can't walk down the road without having to walk past at least one person who will comment on my appearance in a cruel way. I'm used to it now (I've never been one to conform, but not in a scary Lady Gaga way ;)) and I can genuinely say it really doesn't bother me. So, added to that, if I stopped shaving my legs and underarms, it would just be yet another thing for the 'locals' to pounce on - this could all be down to the fact that I live in a small village because I get less comments when I venture into the bright lights. I'm not really sure it would affect me that much. But as I said earlier, it feels nice. There's nothing better than having a long bath and feeling all smooth and moisturised and soft! I agree that it is a social norm and that it is expected of women, from other women and men alike, but for me part of it is taking pride in my appearance (even if nobody else seems to like it!) which is important to me because if I feel that I look nice and have made the effort for myself then I feel good. If that makes any sense...

If women really hate shaving their legs that much just do what my sister does which is stop whining about being persecuted & just buy a pair of f*cking trousers.

There have been quite a few girls/women on here comment that they really feel they have been held back by their gender. Now, I can certainly see how in many, MANY situations, being female makes things a little more difficult for me, but I honestly can not come up with a single instance where I was actually denied an opportunity because of being female (aside from certain religious ceremonies or rituals I was denied entrance to while travelling, but that's a pretty isolated and obscure situation). I'm really curious to know how you were actually held back from a specific goal?

Mo'nique got something to say y'all.

http://www.bet.com/Assets/BET/Publis...ce_MoNique.jpg

Im really curious to know some of the responses to this too. I am not going to claim that we are completely equal in all walks of life just yet because i dont believe we are quite there yet but in our average, day-to-day life i just dont happen to be seeing women being held back. I dont see women losing jobs, failing to get a job or frankly any other instance of women actually unfairly losing out on an opportunity or being held back simply for the reason that they are female. If this is not always the case then i would be very interested to hear some stories the women here may have.

In lesser developed countries, it's not uncommon for women to live in constant fear of rape and abuse, even female circumcision. Living in England or other well off countries, it's easy to assume the sexes are equal, or at least almost equal, but some countries are two worlds away from that ideal.