I understand that but as far as im aware none of the women posting in this thread are from those lesser developed countries. There seems to be a recurring theme here in which some members feel that being female puts them at a disadvantage and i am just interested to know why.

Well obviously, but that's not what I asked. I asked the women who responded in this thread to explain how exactly they had been really held back from something because of their gender. Many women did not say that it was more difficult, or that they faced obstacles being a woman, they said they had actually been held back from something by being a women. I'm curious to hear how that happened, because I can honestly say I've never been passed over or denied anything that I wanted because of my gender.

I wasn't responding to you. :laughing:

well no but you were responding to mojopinuk, who simply said he'd like to hear the answer to my question as well, so in a way, you were responding to me. Unless you weren't responding to either of us.

I'll give an example. I was hired because I am a man. The firm was looking for a male because the job requires frequent contact with middle-eastern clients who look more favorably on men. Perhaps there were women who applied and were more qualified, I'll never know as they were never seriously considered. I believe there was also a consideration that a woman who was hired the year before went on maternity leave and will be out of action for at least a year. Companies frown on that. My sister also told me that her employers asked her (even though it's illegal) about her personal life (boyfriend) and whether she intended to get pregnant soon. It may not be fair, but I can also understand why employers in capitalism would prefer to hire men than women precisely because of the risk that women could get pregnant. Sucks but it happens. At least in Croatia...:\

The cases about maternity leave and the questions about their personal life are pretty bad. I've never experienced that, although that could be due to the fact that at my age many employers don't think of me as being in the the "settling down ready to have a family" stage of my life. I know my mom had to deal with questions like that in job interviews before, but she was being interviewed by two men, one much older, one not much older than her. When the older man asked her if she had any plans to start a family, the younger one promptly told him to shut up, apologized profusely, and then offered her the job a few days later.

The other case you mentioned, in dealing with men from middle eastern cultures, is a bit more tricky because it's a direct result of the perceptions of a different culture, and I was asking more about people's experiences in the US, Canada, UK, and other european cultures. I can understand that reasoning entirely. I certainly don't agree with the sentiment that women are somehow less capable in the business world than men, but the reality is that in that area of the world, it's the norm. And no matter how much western people protest against this, it's not something that we can have any major and lasting effect on, change is going to have to come from inside those cultures to really make a difference. But that's a totally different topic.

I geniunely don't know. I like being female and looking girly, and having long hair. But men have SO many pro's. I feel women have more pressure on them also.

I think it may be natural for us to consider "hairless" women (not bald) more attractive because it correlates in a general way with qualities that make women better abled mothers. Body hair can be a sign of testosterone for example and women who have a lot of it can have a real hard time getting pregnant.

Also, I think to understand the differences between the sexes, one should look at our nature. Women are the ones getting pregnant and who have to invest a a lot in sexual reproduction, so it's important for them to be choosy with who they have sex with. You don't wanna be pregnant for 9 months and rear the child of some tit who's not able to care for you and who's not even loyal. For men on the other hand, all that is not as important. The minimum amount of energy you have to spend on an offspring is the cost of sex - a little physical exertion and a sperm load. You could run off after that and never see her or the child again. A good strategy for a woman should be to be as attractive as possible so that men get interested in her. If successful, she should then be in a situation where men are competing for her and she gets to choose a victor. Then, women looking for partners are in a sort of beauty competition with eachother as men "traditionally" like qualities that indicate women are good mothers - for example that they won't die during child birth and will produce milk for the child. Not too much body hair, nice boobs and a tush to match and so on.

Men compete with other men in that they have to have qualities that make women choose them. Women traditionally like qualities that make men good at caring for them, for example that they are strong, smart, kind, loyal, protective and have a sense of humour.

Of course it's not completely like that. What I just wrote is a very rough and general idea and there are exceptions as well as specific behaviours and social systems that prevent females from being the choosers. Still, by seeing stuff like that as a general pattern in our history, I think you can answer a lot of questions about why women and men are different and where some of those differences stem from.

The reason it's a bad thing for women to feel pressured by society/culture to shave their bodies is that they are being told that how they are physically, naturally, is disgusting, which IS sexist and demeaning toward women, since men are not told this about their body hair.

A related, and much worse, analogy for males is the case of male genital cutting in the U.S. One reason many men and women here STILL agree and *want* their baby boys to be strapped down, spread-eagled on a circumstraint board, and have their foreskins gauged and then cut from their glans (often without anesthetic) is that Mom and Dad feel "foreskins are ugly," and Dad wants his little tyke to "look like him."

I feel it is a good thing to fight the view that women's bodies are ugly as they are naturally, just like it is a good thing to fight the notion that boys' foreskins are ugly. People should not be made to feel bad about their bodies as they are naturally.

Yes, it is unfair that men can be hairy but women are encouraged/forced/chastised to not be hairy. The problem with this norm of body shaving is that it encourages women and men to have bad and judgemental views of women's bodies as they are. Men aren't ridiculed out in public if they have beards...although perhaps they are if their beards are very long?

Brushing teeth helps protect people from cavities and gum disease. Shaving body hair has no physical benefits, wastes time, and usually results in cuts every once in a while.

My whole point, boo boo, is that for many women NOT shaving ISN'T a choice they even consider, because they are too afraid not to shave. That is why it is sad. The reason it is sexist is that men's leg and arm hair is considered okay, but women's is not. I am all for choice...that's why I want to make sure my fellow women HAVE a real choice and are not denegrated for their bodies and shamed into feeling that how their bodies are naturally is bad.

As for your contention that my not shaving is a "cry for attention," the only cry for attention I feel my hairs make is the cry to women telling them, "Your bodies are okay as your bodies naturally are!"

I understand completely the nice idea of pampering yourself, which I agree is fun. But why is shaving off your leg hair taking pride in your appearance? Why isn't *having* your leg hair taking pride in your appearance? That's what I'm getting at.

I don't feel too concerned about people's negative reactions to me and my body hair, either, though when I was younger I did (and had good reason to be). Now I think it is interesting to observe people's reactions (mostly surprise and lots of curious looks), and a quick way to find out whom you like or don't. Most people are very polite, such as recently when I was at the U.S. largest Indoor Aquatic Center. I get amused by the times when people cluster around to stare at me. That's too bad your villagers aren't used to individuality!

Whining about being persecuted is so much more fun. ;)

Also, one of the things I like most about not shaving (and not wearing f*cking trousers) is that it requires no effort on my part. It's activism that requires no activity! When you're a "fluffy" woman and wear shorts, other women can see you and your hair and think, "Hey look! I don't have to shave and I can survive/get married/have a kid!" So, it's fun to empower people like that. The more people who get used to seeing hairy women, the easier it is for women to feel free to consider not shaving, so they don't feel forced to do it or cover up.

Of course, some women may think upon seeing me, "Eegads! Where is my rasor?!" But those are only the women who dislike how they naturally look. Please tell your sister I hope she will wear shorts if she wants to.

what?

she's not a hermaphrodite for one. gender bending perhaps, but packing both units. not sure where you're getting the sex drive thing from either. i was referring to the misuse of the term asexual that some people use to describe not having a sex drive, it's wrong. asexual means being a species capable of individual reproduction by being born with all necessary reproductive organs. nothing about libido. though i'm sure Tore could elaborate if necessary.




as for the shaving thing it cuts both ways but not nearly as bad on the man's face as the woman's legs. as a male you don't get any direct derision but you are treated differently when you have a badass hobo beard as compared to being clean shaven. women just seem far more direct and insidious with their genetic self-loathing than guys.

Sugar-coated transphobia.

A badass hobo beard! :D Yeah, you don't see those too often, other than with ZZ Top. And in certain countries where male beards are encouraged or required by law for religious reasons (s c a r y ! ! ). I think people here occasionally playfully make fun of men's beards and especially mustaches. They don't make vocal "eww" sounds and derisive laughter about men's beards...very often, at least.

Here's an article about Mo'Nique, who keeps her body hair (pictures of her were shown earlier in the thread). I'm glad she and a few other famous women, such as the Dresden Dolls' Amanda Palmer, raise the topic of shaving and inspire a discussion. I'm glad they are so brave, because they make life easier for other women by helping to reduce social constraints on them:

That's part of what I don't like about shaving: it is as if women are intentionally making themselves obsequious, too afraid to stand up to people's negative opinions.

It reminds me of how in the 50s, women in the U.S. intentionally tried to "play dumb" so that their less educated male significant others didn't feel threatened (I have a book from the 1950s in which women are interviewed about this issue). I always felt sad for those women, because they weren't able to be who they really were in their relationships. And back then, with more limited work opportunities, women were forced to rely on finding a mate for financial security, so they made personal sacrifices in order to conform to the socially accepted view of "woman."

It's all about gender roles. In a typical situation, men have body hair and women don't. Therefore, a woman who does not shave her body hair is seen as manly, and a man who shaves his body hair(other then for athletic purposes) is seen as feminine. In most cases, especially regarding males, this is done for the sole purpose of looking more masculine/feminine respectivley.

You're deluded if you think the reason girls shave is because they're 'afraid not to', they do it to make themselves look better, not because they're 'pressured by society', but because that is what most men find more attractive. In that sense, it's the same as a girl changing her hairstyle in order to make themselves more attractive. Do you have something against physical self-improvement?

More importantly, just because something 'unnatural' has become a social norm, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It's not natural for me to wear glasses, but I do it so I can see better. It's not natural for me to wear clothing, but I'm sure people would say I was 'disgusting' if I chose not to.

I've seen plenty of women say that men with hairy backs are 'disgusting'
So it works both ways.

maybe not beards but i've most definitely heard less than nice comments about mullets heheh.

i also totally agree with all your other points.

though i must say body image stigma has definitely started to affect both genders in recent times though still not as harshly for men as women. but when you see men's 'health' magazines in the grocery store and most of the guys in the photos look like Adidasss' avatar it makes my skinny frame feel quite out of place (being built like a female runway model isn't quite that awesome when you're the one with the penis).


as for the comparison to the unnaturalness of glasses vs. the unnaturalness of shaving they're worlds apart. glasses serve a tangible purpose to allow for a productive life. i don't see how shaving one's legs or armpits quite serves the same purpose and function as the ability to provide clear sight.


here's a 'fresh' conspiracy theory for the afternoon as well. ever notice how there are no actual deodorants (to cover up the smell of the sweat) specifically marketed to women? only antiperspirants (to block pores to actually stop the sweat from happening). the conspiracy being a MUCH higher rate of breast cancer to those without deodorants.

I know this is quite a few pages back but I only just saw it. I think this is because men tend to be more dominant in society and are (in general) physically stronger and therefore have better means to commit these crimes.

Hey hey hey, I am not a transphobic (is that even a word?). All I'm saying is that its not something I understand. But if someone chooses to be transgender, thats completely fine by me. Its not my choice, my opinion shouldnt even matter. Its their decision, they have every right to do what they want. But I personally cant relate to it.

Personally i think its very easy to understand your point of view. If im honest then the idea of changing your sex is really, very weird to me. It doesnt mean that i cant understand that some people may genuinely feel that they would benefit from this, it just means that as im comfortable being male and cant imagine ever considering something like that, i cant possibly relate to these people and how they must feel about themselves.

I somehow can, but I don't bother in a way. Like the tags "males" and "females" seem absurd to me. I'm not happy as a "female", but it's not because I find "male" better. I just feel excluded from the whole "gender" concept.

Maybe, but all you need is a gun, that doesn't really require serious physical strength.

From what I hear Lebannon is one of the more liberal middle eastern countries, though I take it that's not saying much.

Attracting other mates is a pretty legitimate use. Taste in women is pretty varied from guy to guy but one thing that is pretty universal is smooth legs.

And yeah, guys shave parts of their body to look more attractive too, granted the stigma isn't as great if they don't do it, but if all vegan is fighting for is for women to have a choice I have no problem with that, but they do have a choice, if she made the choice not to do it why can't any other woman? At least in western society. There is always some little subculture out there where you will be accepted and it seems like she found hers. At this point in time the worst you'll get is dirty looks and that's a good step forward from when women were prosecuted in witch trials.

My problem is she is making this a false dilemma, either you do what she does and you're being the progressive, or you choose to shave your legs because god forbid you have no problems with it and actually like to do it because you don't like having hairy legs, you're still part of the problem.

That is just bullsh*t.

I think you just like the idea of being as natural as possible and that's fine but don't give so much flack to people who'd rather not feel like cavemen.

Personally I think it is ugly, but I think hairy men are pretty damn ugly too and so do a lot of women FYI, how a guy maintains himself is just as instrumental in getting laid as it is for women, guy's are a little more choosy on the appearance side of things I won't lie but that doesn't mean guys don't also do a lot of things to enhance their appearance to please women.

But does any guy ever rant about this and how men are enslaving themselves to what women want and all that? F*ck no. It's a personal choice, just as it is with women. The big reward is you're more likely to get laid and the big penalty is you'll get made fun of and called a weirdo. But there's a lot of things that get you called a weirdo that doesn't mean everybody has to conform to these acts so it isn't so weird anymore.

Cutting our hair is also unnatural but men do it a lot more than women do, mainly because you'll be called a hippie or something, should men stop cutting their hair? What about men who shave their beards off? That's unnatural too.

The thing is a lot of guys LIKE doing it, sometimes it's purely for comfort reasons. I don't shave anymore because I'm lazy but I admit that when I did do it I felt a lot more comfortable afterwards.

So why is it so hard to accept that yes some women like to feel better about themselves in the same way men do?

For one this isn't the 60s anymore, most guys have short hair and I get picked on for my appearance, long hair and beard. I accept that as just a result of my personal choice which is to be a little different from everybody else. But I like being different, as in I'm not gonna force other people to be just like me as you're trying to do. You're different, why not just take pride in that instead of wishing everyone was the same?

Also, doing stuff to be more attractive to the opposite sex is NOT unnecessary. At least if that's what you want. You act like women will get hanged if they don't do this and that's just dumb, they face ridicule but so would I if I stopped wearing clothes and hey that's natural right?

We don't want to be like monkeys and that's a personal choice you feel we don't have for some reason.

If I recall correctly, some women here clearly say that they feel it's their choice and they like doing it and you're telling them that they're enslaving themselves and I find that insulting and I'm sure they do too.

Nudists use that logic too but you have to accept that some acts of conformity just aren't gonna go away and as they will always exist, choosing them actually have their benefits. You make a few accidental cuts sound like a terrible sacrifice it's not like we're forcing women to pull their uteruse's out.


Because most people don't find it aesthetically appealing, INCLUDING women. You do and that's fine but you're ranting because people don't share your beauty ideals. I have my own beauty ideals that don't conform to the media's but I'm not gonna be morally imperialistic about it.

And that is their choice just as it is a choice for a lot of men to shave their beards and cut their hair. And it's also a choice for women to shave their heads which has the duality of being an act of nonconformity AND being physically unnatural so I don't know what your stance on that is.

Nor do I care, I'd imagine shaving your head would be as uncomfortable as leg shaving if not more but a lot of people do it, one reason is and here's a shocker, because people feel more comfortable without hair, so being "natural" isn't for everybody. A lot of guys like to shave body hair for comfort reasons so it's foolish to think that NO woman could possibly ever feel this way about leg shaving. Even as women on this thread admit that they do you seem to be denying it.

You're trying to guilt trip women into making a personal choice which you feel leads to persecution as in you're encouraging them to be persecuted, if I didn't know any better I'd say you just don't want to be alone. But that's a price that comes with doing something different, deal with it.

Like what?

I'm curious to know why so many women here feel like they're part of the inferior sex. Women have a LOT OF pros too, one thing me and all the trannies will surely agree on. :D

You sure have a lot to say about this thread boo boo :laughing:

^ Luckily this time he's not a mod.

Oh you don't even know the half of it.
Boo boo is deeply passionate about 4 things:

1. Women with shaved heads
2. Discussions about feminism
3. Prog
4. Nintendo

All his best banter is usually based on those things. Come to expect it.
It's his internet ID.
:D

:laughing:

Nintendo? I'd sure like to see a thread about that.

You might just be able to tempt him.

Like what? Tempt him with talk of Pokemon Ruby?

This is what I love about boo boo. Once he's on a topic that's interesting, BOOM!

I'm sure he won't be the only one ecstatic with a Pokemon thread.
If there's a heaven, I want it to be Pallet Town.

^ Count me in. Ash is basically my other half :laughing:

It's not uncommon for women to fear rape and abuse in developed countries, too. One in 4 women in developed countries will be raped or sexually abused at some point in their lifetime. This is significantly higher than males.

But I'm not going to go into detail all of the circumstances in which I was disadvantaged because of my gender because they are pretty personal, and last time it just ended badly for everyone and I just pretty much can't be bothered arguing this topic again and again now with males.

If I was a woman I think I would be proud of it, even if I felt like I was entitled to less rights than men.

If men do have more rights then women it's because it's the men who control things so it's only natural that those in control have more power.

But I'd rather fight those in power than suck it up and just wish I was one of those in power. That never solves anything. Even as f*cking stupid as most people are we ARE more progressive than we used to be and civil rights are totally getting better. Hopefully someday women won't feel as uncomfortable about being women.

Because talking from a guy's standpoint, a woman who is satisfied with herself and her appearance is a lot more appealing than a woman who isn't.

I also do think that like it or not, gender is always gonna be a defining trait of who you are. As negative and self depreciating as I often come off as I'm actually quite satisfied being the person that I am and being male is a part of that. Whenever I get to know someone I could never imagine them being the opposite sex nor would I want to. Even as a not so spiritual guy I think being comfortable with who you are is important. I don't give a f*ck if other people dont like me for who I am and I wish everyone felt that way.

I think being comfortable with who you are is important too, but doesn't this statement reinforce the patriarchic ideal that women are just supposed to be appealing for men?

No no no not what I meant, but I'm not talking about appealing on just a sexual level, a personality level also.

Women being appealing to men isn't an ideal.. it's kind of a necessity...

I had a 12 year-old crush on Ash. Quite sad really.

I'll give you that, but I'd imagine relatively few of these crimes were committed using a gun. You were talking of crimes like sexual offences amongst others, now can you really imagine an average woman overpowering an average man to rape him?

What I was really saying in my first post was that it seems to me that girls feel more emotional pain, or at least, the girls I know tend to go into more and worse bad moods than the guys I know, and it's partly that that puts me off wanting to change my gender.

I see it as the same way as doing something with my hair or putting on make up or wearing something nice. It's personal preference. If you think having leg hair is your way of showing that you're proud of your appearance and who you are then fine, live and let live. I don't think I'd see you and be inspired to throw my razor away, but I wouldn't judge. It's like if I see a woman with a haircut I don't like or wearing a pair of really cunty shoes. I wouldn't want to look like them, but I'm not going to think less of them as a person. It's their body and their choice.

We've agreed that yes, shaving legs is a social norm and something that we would probably never do of our own free will if it weren't. But at the same time, from what I see here, I look at things a slightly different way. I have tattoos, Boo Boo has a beard and long hair, you don't shave your legs - these are all against social norms yet we still do it to 'better' (or at least alter) our appearance and distinguish us from others. It just so happens that your particular gripe is less common than the others.