Hairy armpits and women

chipper · 08-12-2011, 08:07 AM

it's their armpit, they can grow it if they want.

i just don't feel attracted to those who have hair in their armpits. just a personal preference.

CanwllCorfe · 08-12-2011, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

IMO, the best and most desirable traits of a man have nothing to do with hair or his body's appearance at all. I feel the same about women.

And is it "masculine" to be afraid of or threatened by a woman's body hair? Isn't "masculine" supposed to mean strong, non-petty, and protective, rather than weak, nit-picky, and dominating? What *is* masculine?

Afraid of? Threatened? I just think it's ugly and masculine, in the same way that women with big muscles and deep voices are. And yes, that does sound masculine. Are you saying I'm not masculine because I find women with body hair completely unattractive? I found this interesting:

Quote:

Cambridge University zoologist Charles Goodhart believed men have long preferred the "hairless trait" in women, ever since the existence of the "hairless trait" occurred in our hairy forebears 70,000-120,000 years ago during the last episode of global warming. Goodhart argued that humans are relatively hairless today compared to our ancestors because women who were sexually selected for their "hairless trait" passed it on to both their male and female offspring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

According to Wiki, "In many cultures, the basic characteristics of masculinity include physical prowess (strength, fitness, and a lack of laziness), courage, wisdom, and honourable or righteous behavior."

According to Merriam Webster, "having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man".

Guybrush · 08-12-2011, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

Yet most women in the U.S. shave their legs and underarms, showing that the majority of female humans *do* have quite a bit of hair. If body hair is so prevalent as to be removed by huge percentages of women in certain cultures...and that only in recent human history and sporadically among humankind...I question whether there is any deep innate drive among people to want women with less or no body hair.

If visible, robust body hair were such an important trait to negate, wouldn't sexual selection have rid women of it long ago?

I personally don't mind that someone has a normal amount of body hair and some level of testosterone has more fitness benefits than just those related to hair so that's alright. Still, a woman having a lot of (let's say significantly more than average) body hair is not a trait I find appealing - in fact I don't find it attractive at all, just like I don't find very asymmetrical faces or obesity attractive. As a lot of body hair would be an indicator of high levels of testosterone and lower fertility as a result, it makes sense to me that this preference has roots in my own biological selfishness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanwllCorfe

Cambridge University zoologist Charles Goodhart believed men have long preferred the "hairless trait" in women, ever since the existence of the "hairless trait" occurred in our hairy forebears 70,000-120,000 years ago during the last episode of global warming. Goodhart argued that humans are relatively hairless today compared to our ancestors because women who were sexually selected for their "hairless trait" passed it on to both their male and female offspring.

Without doing any research on the subject, I don't see anything immediately wrong with this hypothesis.

edit :

Actually, I caught myself in a lie. After searching myself a bit more, I have to admit that I personally do feel that less is more when it comes to body hair in women. I won't say how much of that is culture and how much is biological preference though

Possibly, modern culture has found a way to exploit a natural preference by pushing our perception of "normal amount of body hair" to almost zero for women.

VEGANGELICA · 08-12-2011, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanwllCorfe

Afraid of? Threatened? I just think it's ugly and masculine, in the same way that women with big muscles and deep voices are. And yes, that does sound masculine. Are you saying I'm not masculine because I find women with body hair completely unattractive?

According to Merriam Webster, "having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man".

That depends on how one defines "masculine."

I don't subscribe to the notion of "masculine" and "feminine" because I observe so much variability among people. For example, using the wikipedia definition of "masculine," I observe that all people, regardless of gender, can display "physical prowess (strength, fitness, and a lack of laziness), courage, wisdom, and honourable or righteous behavior," and those are admirable characteristics in anyone, regardless of gender.

I would say that if you are a man, then you are "masculine," however you behave or appear, because you are a man. Similarly, if I am a woman, then I am "feminine," however I behave or appear, because I am a woman. And that includes my body hair. It is female body hair, after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanwllCorfe

I found this interesting:

Quote:

Cambridge University zoologist Charles Goodhart believed men have long preferred the "hairless trait" in women, ever since the existence of the "hairless trait" occurred in our hairy forebears 70,000-120,000 years ago during the last episode of global warming. Goodhart argued that humans are relatively hairless today compared to our ancestors because women who were sexually selected for their "hairless trait" passed it on to both their male and female offspring.

Interesting, but not necessarily true.

The most reasonable hypothesis I've read about why humans are relatively "hairless" compared to other primates is that lack of fur allows us to sweat and cool our bodies more efficiently, which would have been an evolutionary advantage among early humans who began long, hot treks while hunting and gathering across Africa several million years ago:

Quote:

Nina G. Jablonski (Feb. 2010) "The Naked Truth: Why Humans Have No Fur," Scientific American Magazine.
The Naked Truth: Why Humans Have No Fur: Scientific American

Among primates, humans are unique in having nearly naked skin. Our bare skin is related to staying cool, as our superior sweating abilities suggest. Humans, in addition to lacking fur, possess an extraordinary number of eccrine glands—between two million and five million—that can produce up to 12 liters of thin, watery sweat a day.

This combination of naked skin and watery sweat that sits directly atop it rather than collecting in the fur allows humans to eliminate excess heat very efficiently.

Because humans are the only primates that lack coats and have an abundance of eccrine glands, something must have happened since our hominid lineage diverged from the line leading to our closest living relative, the chimpanzee, that favored the emergence of naked, sweaty skin.

Perhaps not surprisingly, the transformation seems to have begun with climate change.

By using fossils of animals and plants to reconstruct ancient ecological conditions, scientists have determined that starting around three million years ago the earth entered into a phase of global cooling that had a drying effect in East and Central Africa, where human ancestors lived.

In response to this dwindling of resources, our forebears would have had to abandon their relatively leisurely foraging habits for a much more consistently active way of life just to stay hydrated and obtain enough calories, traveling ever longer distances in search of water and edible plant foods.

But these elevated activity levels came at a price: a greatly increased risk of overheating.

According to the fossil evidence, the transition to naked skin and an eccrine-based sweating system must have been well under way by 1.6 million years ago to offset the greater heat loads that accompanied our predecessors’ newly strenuous way of life.

As for why, within an ethnic group, women often have less body hair than men within that group, there are interesting evolutionary hypotheses. However, it isn't known which selection pressures caused variation in hairiness between women and men (on average) or among different groups of people, for that matter.

Quoting from the same article above:

Quote:

The Naked Truth: Why Humans Have No Fur: Scientific American

With regard to our body hair, the question is why it is so variable. There are many populations whose members have hardly any body hair at all and some populations of hirsute folks. Those with the least body hair tend to live in the tropics, whereas those with the most tend to live outside the tropics. Yet the hair on these nontropical people provides no warmth to speak of.

These differences in hairiness clearly stem to some extent from testosterone, because males in all populations have more body hair than females do. A number of theories aimed at explaining this imbalance attribute it to sexual selection. For example, one posits that females prefer males with fuller beards and thicker body hair because these traits occur in tandem with virility and strength. Another proposes that males have evolved a preference for females with more juvenile features.

These are interesting hypotheses, but no one has actually tested them in a modern human population; thus, we do not know, for instance, whether hairy men are in fact more vigorous or fecund than their sleeker counterparts. In the absence of any empirical evidence, it is still anybody’s guess why human body hair varies the way it does.

CanwllCorfe · 08-12-2011, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

I would say that if you are a man, then you are "masculine," however you behave or appear, because you are a man. Similarly, if I am a woman, then I am "feminine," however I behave or appear, because I am a woman. And that includes my body hair. It is female body hair, after all.

Growing up I had a lot of people ask me if I was gay or not, because I guess I'm considered "feminine". Then again I live in the backwoods, so it doesn't take much. I suppose it's because I don't cross my legs in the conventional "manly" way, or maybe that I actually care about how I look. Oh, and I don't like sports! But I digress. I'm going way off topic here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

Interesting, but not necessarily true.

Yeah I wouldn't doubt if it was all personal preference, or it just comes from societal brainwashing. I wasn't trying to posit that my viewpoint is based out of evolution, but I think there must be some element in there somewhere. Maybe not, but this line in your article makes me wonder:

Quote:

Another proposes that males have evolved a preference for females with more juvenile features.

I would have no problem in saying that I simply don't like it. I mean, I'd be okay with some body hair, but beard/mustache and leg hair is just... not good.

Paedantic Basterd · 08-12-2011, 11:38 AM

This thread stresses me out.

EvilChuck · 08-12-2011, 02:12 PM

I find it unattractive and think its unhygienic. I shave my armpits as well, despite being told it was 'feminine' by men, and had some women seem a bit weirded out by the thought of it. I have found that even after a day working and sweating, I will still smell cleaner and fresher than my haired counterparts though, which justifies my decision in my opinion.

Urban Hat€monger ? · 08-12-2011, 05:11 PM

I realise that you're probably all pissed at me for closing the rage against the MODchine thread but bumping THIS in It's place?

Cheap shot.

Howard the Duck · 08-12-2011, 06:00 PM

as long as there are no fleas in them

djchameleon · 08-12-2011, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilChuck

I find it unattractive and think its unhygienic.

Unhygenic? Really? Soap and water plus deodorant works fine.
There is nothing wrong with armpit hair on women.
Its not like they are going around flashing it.

08-12-2011, 08:07 AM	#91 (permalink)
chipper Music Addict Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: LA, Ca Posts: 179	it's their armpit, they can grow it if they want. i just don't feel attracted to those who have hair in their armpits. just a personal preference. __________________ real love letters to exes

08-12-2011, 02:12 PM	#97 (permalink)
EvilChuck #based Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: (Near) London, England Posts: 443	I find it unattractive and think its unhygienic. I shave my armpits as well, despite being told it was 'feminine' by men, and had some women seem a bit weirded out by the thought of it. I have found that even after a day working and sweating, I will still smell cleaner and fresher than my haired counterparts though, which justifies my decision in my opinion. __________________ Last.FM

08-12-2011, 05:11 PM	#98 (permalink)
Urban Hat€monger ? The Sexual Intellectual Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Somewhere cooler than you Posts: 18,605	I realise that you're probably all pissed at me for closing the rage against the MODchine thread but bumping THIS in It's place? Cheap shot. __________________ Urb's RYM Stuff Most people sell their soul to the devil, but the devil sells his soul to Nick Cave.

08-12-2011, 11:38 AM	#96 (permalink)
Paedantic Basterd Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 5,184	This thread stresses me out.