Calling all nerds! Star Trek moderator required!

Unknown Soldier · 10-19-2014, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

Whether it seem realistic or not, "that a ship's captain would beam down to lead dangerous missions" depends how you look at it. You can rationalize it and it probably wouldn't make sense at all. But if you look at it from the view point of when and how it was made and give it some leeway, it's something that isn't thought about much. Just like any sci-fi, Star Trek (tos) had its opportunity to create its own paradigm.

It wasn't me that stated it was unrealistic that a ship's captain would beam down on every mission, but the production team behind the series, which is why the Picard type captain was invented.

Quote:

When Star Trek came out there was hardly any universal sci-fi/space mythology developed so there probably wasn't an unwritten that a captain shouldn't leave his spaceship for whatever reason. I think the original series borrowed from what was available at the time. Star Trek blended elements from James Bond movies, Westerns, Twilight Zone and even LotR. Besides being 007 & Captain Horatio Hornblower in outer space, Kirk was also like a sheriff, with Spock as his deputy, and Bones as the town doctor. Either on-board on an alien planet the action mostly centers around those main characters. And it was expected to see Kirk in the thick of it.

I asked my brother (who is more of a Trekee than me) about what you said and he said basically Picard stayed on board at the request of Kiker. But in movies Picard went down on every mission.

I agree there were few series in the sci-fi for it to draw upon when it first came out, so much like Dr. Who it just developed in its own style. But unlike Dr. Who which never tried to be remotely realistic, Trek did by the time of NG. Even though it had already carved out the concept of the Federation of Planets and presented us with a scenario of what man could be achieving centuries from now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

I also think Frakes really grew into the role of Riker from season two onwards. Remember "Frame of mind"?

Frakes as an actor always reminded me of James Brolin, another cardboard actor, who also relied on a nice face and smile to carry him through. I'm sure it's the beard that strips them of any acting ability.

Trollheart · 10-19-2014, 10:18 AM

Neapolitan's analogy is not only very apt, it helps to explain the whole idea of Kirk beaming down every week. He was indeed seen as something of a sheriff --- TV at that time was still mostly dominated by the Western genre, and indeed when Roddenberry pitched Star Trek he called it "A Wagon Train to the stars (Wagon Train being a popular western series at the time) --- zap guns instead of six-shooters, aliens instead of injuns". So the idea of the sheriff (Kirk) and his deputy (Spock) staying at home (on the Enterprise) while "danger reared its head" or there was "trouble at the saloon" was pretty ludicrous to the TV-watching audience of the sixties. Kirk was the leader, and he should be in there getting his feet wet, fighting the bad guys. The ship could look after itself. Did Roy Rogers worry about his horse when he went into the saloon to sort out the bad guys? That sort of thinking --- the responsible, dedicated officer who put duty before personal fulfilment --- was not popular, hardly even dreamed of at the time.

Not to mention that many of the TOS episodes took place on a planet. With the nascent and embryonic state of special effects in the sixties and early seventies, it made financial sense and was just easier for the crew to face, say, cowboys on a planet or gangsters in an alternate reality (ie another planet, ie the same one!) than choreograph complicated space battles or the like. If Kirk were not on the planet, then it would be difficult for him to be in them, unless he was called down, and you couldn't have that happening every week. Shatner surely expected as much screentime as possible and would definitely not "do a Picard" and stay home (though in one or two episodes he did, but then either the show focussed on the ship or he beamed down soon after to the planet).

As NextGen came up, CGI and emerging techniques in effects, together with much tighter and more far-ranging storylines made it eminently possible for a story to take place completely aboard ship and not lose any of its drama, so that the imperative for the captain to be "planetside" was diluted. Also, as was mentioned, NexGen, knowing they would have a pretty rabid (read, nerdy) fanbase knew they would have to make it as realistic as possible, so things like ethics, duty, morality and codes of conduct were explored, making the show a more well-rounded affair.

Unknown Soldier · 10-19-2014, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Not to mention that many of the TOS episodes took place on a planet. With the nascent and embryonic state of special effects in the sixties and early seventies, it made financial sense and was just easier for the crew to face, say, cowboys on a planet or gangsters in an alternate reality (ie another planet, ie the same one!) than choreograph complicated space battles or the like. If Kirk were not on the planet, then it would be difficult for him to be in them, unless he was called down, and you couldn't have that happening every week. Shatner surely expected as much screentime as possible and would definitely not "do a Picard" and stay home (though in one or two episodes he did, but then either the show focussed on the ship or he beamed down soon after to the planet).

I always thought that original Trek did locations well, most location shooting was done in California (nearly always sunny) and when sets were used they really made great use of bright colours and atmosphere with them. Meaning the series really captured the ambient of an alien planet. Just think of scenes with exotic flowers and strange looking skies. It was amazing that this was all done on a small budget. But saying all this a lot of Trek episodes took place aboard the Enterprise to save on costs.

Quote:

As NextGen came up, CGI and emerging techniques in effects, together with much tighter and more far-ranging storylines made it eminently possible for a story to take place completely aboard ship and not lose any of its drama, so that the imperative for the captain to be "planetside" was diluted. Also, as was mentioned, NexGen, knowing they would have a pretty rabid (read, nerdy) fanbase knew they would have to make it as realistic as possible, so things like ethics, duty, morality and codes of conduct were explored, making the show a more well-rounded affair.

Sure the stories based aboard the Enterprise took on more depth, but the also had the use of the holodeck concept which opened up all types of scenarios.

Overall though, Trek was always at its best on alien locations whether they used location shooting or sets.

Trollheart · 10-19-2014, 02:40 PM

Oh man! Cardboard rocks! Have you seen the scene in TOS's "Arena" where Kirk is being "crushed" by a huge boulder the Gorn has thrown at him, and is doing his level best not to allow the wind to blow it off him?

Edit: Forgot about the Holodeck. Though NextGen used them a bit too much and they were an easy plot device. DS9 used the holosuites far better, mostly only referring to their use rather than showing them, and if they were shown, they were just an aside usually in an episode, not the whole story. Leaving aside Vic of course, which I wish they would have done.

Unknown Soldier · 10-19-2014, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Oh man! Cardboard rocks! Have you seen the scene in TOS's "Arena" where Kirk is being "crushed" by a huge boulder the Gorn has thrown at him, and is doing his level best not to allow the wind to blow it off him?

See I love low budget flicks and sci-fi, so that "Arena" episode is a classic for me. As far as I remember the Gorns never returned in any Trek story, but I could be wrong on this.

When it comes to sci-fi, story and concept are far more important than the budget of the series.

Trollheart · 10-19-2014, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

See I love low budget flicks and sci-fi, so that "Arena" episode is a classic for me. As far as I remember the Gorns never returned in any Trek story, but I could be wrong on this.

When it comes to sci-fi, story and concept are far more important than the budget of the series.

Nah. You know --- now, you just KNOW I'm gonna say this --- they were GORN altogether! Oh man! I kill me sometimes!!

Wpnfire · 10-19-2014, 05:25 PM

How can you compare DS9 to the other series? It was like one room for the majority of the show. That's like saying there was character development in 12 Angry Men: of course there was character development. That was like all they had to work with from season to season.

Unknown Soldier · 10-19-2014, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Nah. You know --- now, you just KNOW I'm gonna say this --- they were GORN altogether! Oh man! I kill me sometimes!!

I've found that the Gorn appeared in the animated series which comes just after TOS.

Trollheart · 10-20-2014, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wpnfire

How can you compare DS9 to the other series? It was like one room for the majority of the show. That's like saying there was character development in 12 Angry Men: of course there was character development. That was like all they had to work with from season to season.

What was one room? Anyway, it has to be compared to the other series as they're all Star Trek. You might as well say Stargate: Atlantis shouldn't be compared to Stargate: SG1. Of course they'll be compared.

But I still don't get you. You're saying Voyager was "one room"? That's certainly not accurate: they often went on away missions, had the odd flashback and engaged in space battles. It's not like everyone was on the bridge and that was the show. Anyway, a good series can overcome such limitations. One episode of Babylon 5 featured just two men in an interrogation chamber and was one of the most powerful pieces of drama I've ever seen. The restriction on location should not give it a pass --- they had the whole Delta Quadrant to explore...

The Batlord · 10-20-2014, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

What was one room? Anyway, it has to be compared to the other series as they're all Star Trek. You might as well say Stargate: Atlantis shouldn't be compared to Stargate: SG1. Of course they'll be compared.

But I still don't get you. You're saying Voyager was "one room"? That's certainly not accurate: they often went on away missions, had the odd flashback and engaged in space battles. It's not like everyone was on the bridge and that was the show. Anyway, a good series can overcome such limitations. One episode of Babylon 5 featured just two men in an interrogation chamber and was one of the most powerful pieces of drama I've ever seen. The restriction on location should not give it a pass --- they had the whole Delta Quadrant to explore...

No, he's saying DS9 is one room. Which, apart from being BS, is missing the point. That "one room" was a melting pot for all of the known galaxy. I learned more about the Star Trek universe in one season of that show than I probably did watching every other ST show combined.

10-19-2014, 10:18 AM	#42 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,970	Neapolitan's analogy is not only very apt, it helps to explain the whole idea of Kirk beaming down every week. He was indeed seen as something of a sheriff --- TV at that time was still mostly dominated by the Western genre, and indeed when Roddenberry pitched Star Trek he called it "A Wagon Train to the stars (Wagon Train being a popular western series at the time) --- zap guns instead of six-shooters, aliens instead of injuns". So the idea of the sheriff (Kirk) and his deputy (Spock) staying at home (on the Enterprise) while "danger reared its head" or there was "trouble at the saloon" was pretty ludicrous to the TV-watching audience of the sixties. Kirk was the leader, and he should be in there getting his feet wet, fighting the bad guys. The ship could look after itself. Did Roy Rogers worry about his horse when he went into the saloon to sort out the bad guys? That sort of thinking --- the responsible, dedicated officer who put duty before personal fulfilment --- was not popular, hardly even dreamed of at the time. Not to mention that many of the TOS episodes took place on a planet. With the nascent and embryonic state of special effects in the sixties and early seventies, it made financial sense and was just easier for the crew to face, say, cowboys on a planet or gangsters in an alternate reality (ie another planet, ie the same one!) than choreograph complicated space battles or the like. If Kirk were not on the planet, then it would be difficult for him to be in them, unless he was called down, and you couldn't have that happening every week. Shatner surely expected as much screentime as possible and would definitely not "do a Picard" and stay home (though in one or two episodes he did, but then either the show focussed on the ship or he beamed down soon after to the planet). As NextGen came up, CGI and emerging techniques in effects, together with much tighter and more far-ranging storylines made it eminently possible for a story to take place completely aboard ship and not lose any of its drama, so that the imperative for the captain to be "planetside" was diluted. Also, as was mentioned, NexGen, knowing they would have a pretty rabid (read, nerdy) fanbase knew they would have to make it as realistic as possible, so things like ethics, duty, morality and codes of conduct were explored, making the show a more well-rounded affair. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

10-19-2014, 02:40 PM	#44 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,970	Oh man! Cardboard rocks! Have you seen the scene in TOS's "Arena" where Kirk is being "crushed" by a huge boulder the Gorn has thrown at him, and is doing his level best not to allow the wind to blow it off him? Edit: Forgot about the Holodeck. Though NextGen used them a bit too much and they were an easy plot device. DS9 used the holosuites far better, mostly only referring to their use rather than showing them, and if they were shown, they were just an aside usually in an episode, not the whole story. Leaving aside Vic of course, which I wish they would have done. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

10-19-2014, 05:25 PM	#47 (permalink)
Wpnfire Dragon Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Kansas, United States Posts: 2,744	How can you compare DS9 to the other series? It was like one room for the majority of the show. That's like saying there was character development in 12 Angry Men: of course there was character development. That was like all they had to work with from season to season. __________________ Last.FM My RYM Ratings *My Glitchwave Beta Profile*