Your Day

OccultHawk · 06-22-2020, 01:07 PM

jwb

Do you believe that Mao intentionally manufactured a famine?

WWWP · 06-22-2020, 01:44 PM

I just got spam sent to my work email from address JesusLibRaverDad@[omitted].com

I've never wanted to follow a link more tbh

06-22-2020, 01:58 PM

@OH

I believe that he was inspired to do the great leap forward by Stalin's 5 year plan. And I believe that the 5 year plan intentionally allowed people to starve. It became apparent early on that the collectivization was a failure and that productivity of agriculture decreased, for a variety of reasons. When that became clear, Stalin continued to export food stocks instead of feeding the agrarian peasants who grew the food, thus causing the massive scale of of the famine. That's basically intentional mass murder via famine. Another collectivization effort happened in the USSR in the 1940s on a smaller scale, and once again it caused a (smaller scale) famine.

So yes, I believe that in part Mao had to have known that this sort of rapid industrialization would cost quite a few lives. I think it's possible he didn't realize it would grow to the exact scale it did in China's case, since some of that was due to really stupid and counter productive efforts to increase crop yields which ended up backfiring. But the lesson and example of the 5 year plan was more than enough warning of the hazards of such a policy that in general I don't allow him the excuse of ignorance.

It's also worth mentioning the reasons for the necessity of rapid industrialization were just as much based on internal politics and ideology as they were on military concerns. The blueprint for a workers utopia via Marx assumes that industrialization has already occurred under the stage of capitalism. And at least in the USSR there was a good deal of Bolshevik contempt for the agrarian peasant class as backwards, reactionary, religious and just not conducive to the party's vision of a revolutionary and class conscious proletariat. Probably not a coincidence then that they were the main ones to starve.

Anteater · 06-22-2020, 02:34 PM

His devotion to the Soviet Union's idiocy aside, Mao was exceedingly anti-intellectual and pissed on the expertise of anyone who knew anything about engineering or science or agriculture despite a desire to supposedly cultivate technical expertise and knowledge in the general population.

OccultHawk · 06-22-2020, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

@OH

I believe that he was inspired to do the great leap forward by Stalin's 5 year plan. And I believe that the 5 year plan intentionally allowed people to starve. It became apparent early on that the collectivization was a failure and that productivity of agriculture decreased, for a variety of reasons. When that became clear, Stalin continued to export food stocks instead of feeding the agrarian peasants who grew the food, thus causing the massive scale of of the famine. That's basically intentional mass murder via famine. Another collectivization effort happened in the USSR in the 1940s on a smaller scale, and once again it caused a (smaller scale) famine.

So yes, I believe that in part Mao had to have known that this sort of rapid industrialization would cost quite a few lives. I think it's possible he didn't realize it would grow to the exact scale it did in China's case, since some of that was due to really stupid and counter productive efforts to increase crop yields which ended up backfiring. But the lesson and example of the 5 year plan was more than enough warning of the hazards of such a policy that in general I don't allow him the excuse of ignorance.

It's also worth mentioning the reasons for the necessity of rapid industrialization were just as much based on internal politics and ideology as they were on military concerns. The blueprint for a workers utopia via Marx assumes that industrialization has already occurred under the stage of capitalism. And at least in the USSR there was a good deal of Bolshevik contempt for the agrarian peasant class as backwards, reactionary, religious and just not conducive to the party's vision of a revolutionary and class conscious proletariat. Probably not a coincidence then that they were the main ones to starve.

Thanks. That’s a really well-written thoughtful answer. I should ask you direct questions more often.

Lucem Ferre · 06-22-2020, 02:49 PM

I would say I didn't expect you to respond that way then I realized that the usual argument is calling you a crazy old nut or something along those lines.

The Batlord · 06-22-2020, 02:50 PM

Well yeah cause it's fun.

Lucem Ferre · 06-22-2020, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Well yeah cause it's fun.

Nah, I don't like nut shaming especially when his nuts offer a lot of good moments.

Edit: Actually, that's a lie. I love nut shaming. I just like his nuts.

OccultHawk · 06-22-2020, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

His devotion to the Soviet Union's idiocy aside, Mao was exceedingly anti-intellectual and pissed on the expertise of anyone who knew anything about engineering or science or agriculture despite a desire to supposedly cultivate technical expertise and knowledge in the general population.

It's tricky business weeding out the bourgeoisie.

06-23-2020, 06:26 AM

It's not a matter of bravery, just clarity. I wouldn't bother asking if you approved if I hadn't gotten the impression that you did. I would say making that distinction is useful since there were and are people who still defend Stalinism and Maoism, and when you never say anything bad about them while selectively praising them it's not a crazy leap to think that might also be your position.

06-22-2020, 01:07 PM	#69481 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,006	jwb Do you believe that Mao intentionally manufactured a famine? __________________ 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 Member of the Year & Journal of the Year Champion Behold the Writing of THE LEGEND: https://www.musicbanter.com/members-...p-lighter.html

06-22-2020, 01:58 PM	#69483 (permalink)
jwb Guest Posts: n/a	@OH I believe that he was inspired to do the great leap forward by Stalin's 5 year plan. And I believe that the 5 year plan intentionally allowed people to starve. It became apparent early on that the collectivization was a failure and that productivity of agriculture decreased, for a variety of reasons. When that became clear, Stalin continued to export food stocks instead of feeding the agrarian peasants who grew the food, thus causing the massive scale of of the famine. That's basically intentional mass murder via famine. Another collectivization effort happened in the USSR in the 1940s on a smaller scale, and once again it caused a (smaller scale) famine. So yes, I believe that in part Mao had to have known that this sort of rapid industrialization would cost quite a few lives. I think it's possible he didn't realize it would grow to the exact scale it did in China's case, since some of that was due to really stupid and counter productive efforts to increase crop yields which ended up backfiring. But the lesson and example of the 5 year plan was more than enough warning of the hazards of such a policy that in general I don't allow him the excuse of ignorance. It's also worth mentioning the reasons for the necessity of rapid industrialization were just as much based on internal politics and ideology as they were on military concerns. The blueprint for a workers utopia via Marx assumes that industrialization has already occurred under the stage of capitalism. And at least in the USSR there was a good deal of Bolshevik contempt for the agrarian peasant class as backwards, reactionary, religious and just not conducive to the party's vision of a revolutionary and class conscious proletariat. Probably not a coincidence then that they were the main ones to starve.

06-23-2020, 06:26 AM	#69490 (permalink)
jwb Guest Posts: n/a	It's not a matter of bravery, just clarity. I wouldn't bother asking if you approved if I hadn't gotten the impression that you did. I would say making that distinction is useful since there were and are people who still defend Stalinism and Maoism, and when you never say anything bad about them while selectively praising them it's not a crazy leap to think that might also be your position.