It's just kind of constantly on my mind since I got the news and had to deal with people close to me who are in pain because of it.

I'm getting angry at that girl, even though she was the one to be pitied and helped.

Sorry guys I flushed my frustration here

As long as you flushed. Can't stand those guys who just dump and go. ;)

Also, condolences on your loss.

But what if it's one you're really proud of and want to share with the world?

Sorry for your loss Mucha. I had a friend of mine kill himself shortly after high school. He never quite struck anyone as the kind of guy who'd do something like that. The resounding feeling I had at the time was just wishing that I knew how he was feeling - I would've hung out with him more, talked to him more, and maybe that could've made some kind of difference.

If nothing else, despite how sad it was, it made me a lot more empathetic and understanding towards people and their behavior. You never know what someone is going through, especially strangers. Little acts of kindness go a long way. That person who was rude to you on the tram may have just lost their mother, their brother, or their best friend.

eh

I dunno. You can say they don't have the obligation to live but you can't ignore the way that decision is going to negatively impact the people around you. If you have for example a kid to look after and you kill yourself and leave the kid an orphan, I think it's perfectly fair to say you have a moral obligation to suck it up and not kill yourself for the sake of the suffering you're going to cause.

It's inherently a selfish action to outsource the suffering you're experiencing to the people around you. But it depends on the relationship as far a how reasonable it is to take the selfish route. If your friends are gonna be sad that's a completely different ballgame from leaving behind your kids/immediate family.

^I agree. As someone with occasional suicidal thoughts/wants, I do think of it as profoundly selfish (at least if it's gonna affect a lot of people negatively) and that I have an obligation not to do anything to that effect.. most of all to my kids, but also to others.

Pretty sure that people are usually aware that their suicide would impact loved ones. But when they do it anyway this doesn't have to be a sign of selfishness, it might just show how unbearable their anguish is.

The way I see it, the interest of protecting the self from anguish then became bigger than the interest to protect others from anguish. Depending on what causes the most suffering, that might be well founded, but I'd still call it a selfish interest because it deals with what the self wants even when that is contrary to what other people in your life wants. And I do think that if your suffering is that great and your wellbeing is important to others, you should tell someone and not just keep it to yourself.

A less selfish version of all this is someone is suffering and so they and their family agree that assisted suicide / euthanasia is best. Then everyone probably agrees this is the outcome with the least amount of suffering and the anguish of everyone after a death is lessened as a result of that understanding.

But you're not taking into account that many countries (Ireland included) have no legal assisted suicide/euthanasia (yeah not the place for jokes I know, but I always thought that sounded like a bunch of young people in China: euthanasia) - Karen has occasionally had thoughts of ending it all, but even if I agreed - which on the odd occasion I kind of considered doing - I'd end up in jail for murder. There's no way around that.

I used to subscribe to the idea that suicide was inherently a selfish act, taking the easy way out. I can't anymore. It's been pointed out how literally unable to live with themselves some of these people feel (probably all of them; well, there are other reasons I guess to end your life, but I imagine depression accounts for the biggest percentage) and it's hardly fair to expect them to struggle on just for someone else's sake. It's a sticky problem. My only real issue is people who do it, as you say, without trying to talk to their loved ones or even professionals, see if it's really as bad as they think. I mean, you have, or had, kids hanging themselves over bad test results. Come on: in the larger scheme of things, is this something worth killing yourself over?

It's a conversation, though, for a separate thread I think, and a nuanced one too. It's dangerous and probably disrespectful to treat it in an off-hand, one-size-fits-all manner.

It also has to be considered that many suicidal people have a deep seated hatred of themselves. They might legitimately think that their loved ones are better off without them in the long run even if everything points to the contrary. I know it's crazy but suffering, suicidal people aren't the most rational. Certainly not a topic to be judgemental about.

Yep. Calling it selfish only confirms the fear of being burdensome to everyone else around us.