Unpopular Opinions

~~jwb~~ · 02-23-2021, 02:47 AM

The problem with academic success is that message doesn't resonate with everybody

I was ****in clueless in school as to what I wanted to be when I grew up. I had to be forced into the work force before i truly learned about work ethic and which kinds of jobs I like better than others.

In school I just ****ed off. Hardly showed up. Got in trouble.

It's a hard sell for a lot of kids to say dedicate yourself to the books so that hopefully some day eventually the **** will pay off and you'll get some money out of it.

Where as $15 /hr right now is very easy to understand the incentive behind. Selling dope right now and making more money than the average worker with a high school diploma is easy to understand the incentive behind.

adidasss · 02-23-2021, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

Wasn't my point to say kids are slacking off and should just get a job etc. I just think it could be a benefit for some kids.

I know I wanted money when I was in middle school. My family didn't have much money. I couldn't just go to my parents and say I want this I want that.

As for working 50-60 years... That would mean you start at age 16 and work till you're 76/86???? The current default retirement age is like 65. If you ask me I would rather start work when I'm 12 and retire when I'm 40.

What?? Bro your math is a bit off. It would mean you start working at 18 and work until you're 68 (retirement age in most of Europe), you work 50 years (some people work past that, sometimes out of necessity because they don't have good retirement schemes, like in most of the world).

Also, the obvious point is that kids are kids and the legislation aimed at preventing child labour was meant to stop douchebag parents from exploiting their offspring, not to stop kids who want to work to work (don't think there are many of those).

~~jwb~~ · 02-23-2021, 03:00 AM

Yeah you're right my math was off.

Kids are kids but kids today grow up so much faster than before yet back in the day it was normal for kids to work and now it's not.

Yet back then the work was actually much less suited for kids.. much more brutal. Living in a peasant farm and toiling the field from an early age is something that luckily most modern kids can't imagine... But it used to be the norm.

But meanwhile... I talk to kids in my family and they understand tech better than I did when I was 20. You telling me there is no work they could engage in that would provide both some rewarding experience as well as a source of income? Of course... On a very part time basis...

**Frownland** · 02-23-2021, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

When I was growing up you couldn't legally her a job till 14 and even then you could only work very specific jobs like bagging groceries on the weekends... Until you were 16.

I think it varies by state. California uses baby slaves a lot.

The Batlord · 02-23-2021, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

easy to understand the incentive behind lubing your hand with the shower soap but that doesn't make it a solid plan for long term success

(I didn't do anything in high school either, but I don't even regret it anymore)

SGR · 02-23-2021, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

I talk to kids in my family and they understand tech better than I did when I was 20. You telling me there is no work they could engage in that would provide both some rewarding experience as well as a source of income? Of course... On a very part time basis...

This is a very common belief among older people about the younger generation and in my experience, it just doesn't bear out to be true. Sure, they might have a better surface level 'understanding' about tech than you did at the same age, but that's likely just a result of it being ubiquitous in their life. There's an implication to 'understanding tech'. Young kids and teens today are surely proficient at navigating web app interfaces (Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, TikTok, etc.) - they're also good at navigating smart phone and tablet GUIs and some, installing apps from the app store, and some may be able to tell you exactly what type of connector your new phone cable will need to have.

But how many young kids/teens today could reinstall an operating system, troubleshoot package dependency issues, explain what the TCP/IP suite is, use a DOS or Linux command line, tell you what a DDoS attack is, or set up a LAMP stack machine on a VM?

Kids today have a proficient enough understanding of technology to work entry level jobs that use some level of technology (fast food cashier, customer sales rep, etc.), but that's about it, in my experience. Could they be trained onsite to do a more technically demanding job? Sure - but most companies don't want to pay that price. A lot of companies are still focused (incorrectly, imo) on credentials like degrees, certifications, etc. You could become proficient in the realm of IT without a college education, but you'll still be passed over by a lot of companies without it.

YorkeDaddy · 02-23-2021, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoundgardenRocks

This is a very common belief among older people about the younger generation and in my experience, it just doesn't bear out to be true. Sure, they might have a better surface level 'understanding' about tech than you did at the same age, but that's likely just a result of it being ubiquitous in their life. There's an implication to 'understanding tech'. Young kids and teens today are surely proficient at navigating web app interfaces (Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, TikTok, etc.) - they're also good at navigating smart phone and tablet GUIs and some, installing apps from the app store, and some may be able to tell you exactly what type of connector your new phone cable will need to have.

But how many young kids/teens today could reinstall an operating system, troubleshoot package dependency issues, explain what the TCP/IP suite is, use a DOS or Linux command line, tell you what a DDoS attack is, or set up a LAMP stack machine on a VM?

Kids today have a proficient enough understanding of technology to work entry level jobs that use some level of technology (fast food cashier, customer sales rep, etc.), but that's about it, in my experience. Could they be trained onsite to do a more technically demanding job? Sure - but most companies don't want to pay that price. A lot of companies are still focused (incorrectly, imo) on credentials like degrees, certifications, etc. You could become proficient in the realm of IT without a college education, but you'll still be passed over by a lot of companies without it.

Absolutely spot on with everything you said here

The majority of kids out there nowadays don't "understand" their tech, they just know how to navigate UIs better than boomers because they've been navigating UIs since they were 4 years old

~~jwb~~ · 02-23-2021, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

easy to understand the incentive behind lubing your hand with the shower soap but that doesn't make it a solid plan for long term success

clearly for some of us telling them to hit the books is also not a solid for long term success

i went to school in the hood and they had magnet programs for things like criminal justice, nursing, jrotc. the local kids hardly entered these programs and they ended up bussing in kids from all over the county including a lot of white suburban kids to take advantage of these programs that weren't being utilized by the kids from that school's district.

meanwhile right outside the school is crack town. drug dealers making actual money. you know how many people drop out or even start selling drugs while they're still in school?

if you have no marketable skills it's a simple choice between getting **** on working at mcdonalds or walmart or making actual money doing crime. not that i know exactly what the answer is but creating a way to gain marketable skills beyond what they teach you in a classroom couldn't hurt imo.

Quote:

(I didn't do anything in high school either, but I don't even regret it anymore)

so do as i say, not as i do?

~~jwb~~ · 02-23-2021, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoundgardenRocks

This is a very common belief among older people about the younger generation and in my experience, it just doesn't bear out to be true. Sure, they might have a better surface level 'understanding' about tech than you did at the same age, but that's likely just a result of it being ubiquitous in their life. There's an implication to 'understanding tech'. Young kids and teens today are surely proficient at navigating web app interfaces (Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, TikTok, etc.) - they're also good at navigating smart phone and tablet GUIs and some, installing apps from the app store, and some may be able to tell you exactly what type of connector your new phone cable will need to have.

But how many young kids/teens today could reinstall an operating system, troubleshoot package dependency issues, explain what the TCP/IP suite is, use a DOS or Linux command line, tell you what a DDoS attack is, or set up a LAMP stack machine on a VM?

Kids today have a proficient enough understanding of technology to work entry level jobs that use some level of technology (fast food cashier, customer sales rep, etc.), but that's about it, in my experience. Could they be trained onsite to do a more technically demanding job? Sure - but most companies don't want to pay that price. A lot of companies are still focused (incorrectly, imo) on credentials like degrees, certifications, etc. You could become proficient in the realm of IT without a college education, but you'll still be passed over by a lot of companies without it.

I'm not saying the average kid is going to be a software developer or a network engineer but learning basic troubleshooting skills on the level of lets say a help desk employee is probably just as easy to teach a 12 year old as it is to teach a 30 year old who isn't tech savy. Obviously, they would have to work alongside adults that knew what they were doing but I don't think it's anywhere near as far fetched as you think.

YorkeDaddy · 02-23-2021, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

but learning basic troubleshooting skills on the level of lets say a help desk employee is probably just as easy to teach a 12 year old as it is to teach a 30 year old who isn't tech savy.

You're right when it comes to the level of technical knowledge required for most help desk positions, but on the other hand I'd argue that a help desk position is more than 50% a customer service position than it is an actual IT job. And 12 year olds are probably immensely terrible at customer service.

Hell I actually have achieved the title of "Network Engineer" and I would still say my job is like ~30% or more just about customer service and being personable.

02-23-2021, 02:47 AM	#1791 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	The problem with academic success is that message doesn't resonate with everybody I was **in clueless in school as to what I wanted to be when I grew up. I had to be forced into the work force before i truly learned about work ethic and which kinds of jobs I like better than others. In school I just ed off. Hardly showed up. Got in trouble. It's a hard sell for a lot of kids to say dedicate yourself to the books so that hopefully some day eventually the ** will pay off and you'll get some money out of it. Where as $15 /hr right now is very easy to understand the incentive behind. Selling dope right now and making more money than the average worker with a high school diploma is easy to understand the incentive behind.

02-23-2021, 03:00 AM	#1793 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	Yeah you're right my math was off. Kids are kids but kids today grow up so much faster than before yet back in the day it was normal for kids to work and now it's not. Yet back then the work was actually much less suited for kids.. much more brutal. Living in a peasant farm and toiling the field from an early age is something that luckily most modern kids can't imagine... But it used to be the norm. But meanwhile... I talk to kids in my family and they understand tech better than I did when I was 20. You telling me there is no work they could engage in that would provide both some rewarding experience as well as a source of income? Of course... On a very part time basis...