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Old 04-27-2021, 11:39 AM   #391 (permalink)
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I don't think it's dishonest at all, there's no point in mentioning it he can count on whoever he's talking to
actually you can't. Destiny failed to properly address this and it just went unnoticed. Many people will vaguely mention the holodomor without any understanding of the actual history or how it ties directly to the industrialization efforts.

So people like Destiny will say things like "sure they grew quick but they could've grown even quicker under capitalism" which is patently absurd. You don't industrialize a massive agrarian country like russia in 5 years through ordinary capitalism. You do it by stealing food from peasants and genociding your own population so you can sell the food stocks on the global capitalist market so you can buy industrial machinery from said capitalist countries. In that way central planning is"efficient" in the same way slavery is efficient. Yes you can raise a lot of money through theft and brutality. What an amazing economic innovation.


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and anyway it's the same argument Chomsky has been lecturing with for 30 years

capitalist countries used slavery, imperialism, extensive protectionism and a whole lotta central planning, yes
that's simply whatabotism

The entire point of arguing for socialism is to create a system that addresses the abuses and evils of capitalism. Pointing to a model that was even more efficient at brutalizing and oppressing their own population as a success story for central planning is once again dishonest if you don't acknowledge said brutality and if you do acknowledge it then it's just not a good argument. You're supposed to be proposing something better than capitalism and instead you're pointing to something that was just as if not more brutal and exploitative but they just did it quicker and with a higher death toll in a shorter amount of time. Sorry but that's not a compelling point lol.
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Old 04-27-2021, 11:46 AM   #392 (permalink)
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This isn't really a whataboutism since I'm not defending the Soviets but the British caused a famine in India by doing much the same thing just without the goal of industrializing India and millions died. So don't underestimate capitalism.
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There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 04-27-2021, 12:33 PM   #393 (permalink)
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It is whatabotism because saying capitalism bad as a response to the critique that the supposed successes of central planning are just theft and genocide is a deflection. It's irrelevant that britain starved people in india. You're just getting into the pissing match of who killed more which is once again a distraction from the actual point.

When you are trying to propose an alternative to an abusive system you really need to do better than "well you genocide too!" In doing so you've completely ceded the moral high ground you were using to attack the existing system in the first place.
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Old 04-27-2021, 01:08 PM   #394 (permalink)
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It's not a whataboutism because, again, I'm not defending or arguing for the USSR. I'm pointing out that capitalism can kill millions in a short period of time the same as socialism, which you had stated wasn't the case. We can throw the Belgian Congo in as well.

It's at best fixing your statement and at worst trivia.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 04-27-2021, 01:10 PM   #395 (permalink)
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no the actual point is history really hasn't been about two competing economic models

it's been the success of one set of bourgeois over another...both of which could really care less about these ideas outside some theoretical space

nationalism is so much more important to understanding the motivations of governments
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Old 04-27-2021, 09:04 PM   #396 (permalink)
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It's not a whataboutism because, again, I'm not defending or arguing for the USSR. I'm pointing out that capitalism can kill millions in a short period of time the same as socialism, which you had stated wasn't the case. We can throw the Belgian Congo in as well.

It's at best fixing your statement and at worst trivia.
I didn't say anything about capitalism not being able to cause famines that kill a lot of people in a short period of time. I said that the central planning richard wolff refers to has killed millions of people every single time it was tried so the only innovation here is that you speed up industrialization via genocide. The fact that other genocides/famines have happened without said industrialization in other parts of the world is once again irrelevant. The point is he's pointing to the ussr as a success story of central planning so whether you claim to be defending the ussr or not, by responding to my criticism of his ussr example with a talking point about British colonial exploitation of india is once again whatabotism and just a distraction from the actual point. The bottom line is either you think rapid industrialization is worth killing off millions of peasants via starvation or I don't. If you don't then pointing to the rapid growth of the ussr is a moot point.
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Old 04-27-2021, 09:52 PM   #397 (permalink)
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Again, I'm not a tankie who supports the USSR or China and I think people who do might as well be fascists but you said

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Pointing to a model that was even more efficient at brutalizing and oppressing their own population as a success story for central planning is once again dishonest if you don't acknowledge said brutality and if you do acknowledge it then it's just not a good argument. You're supposed to be proposing something better than capitalism and instead you're pointing to something that was just as if not more brutal and exploitative but they just did it quicker and with a higher death toll in a shorter amount of time.
And I'm saying that capitalism has in fact acted in similar ways with vastly high body counts and portraying capitalism as in fact being less of a killer is not correct and whether or not you intend to imply that it implies that one is preferable to the other whereas I would say that Soviet style socialism and capitalist imperialism both tend to murder lots of people. One just tends to commit mass murder within a country's borders and one tends to commit mass murder as an export.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 04-28-2021, 01:53 AM   #398 (permalink)
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Let's cut to the chase... Are you saying you think soviet 5 year plan style industrialization is either preferable to capitalism or at the very least not less preferable? Because if not you are wasting your time here.

I'm trying to avoid the genocide olympics style pissing contest but iirc the single largest famine in human history that killed the most people in the shortest period of time happened in China during the great leap forward.

But that's not even my point... My point isn't that they killed the most people, its that their economic alternative to capitalism merely relied on the already existing global capitalist markets to use exports that they robbed from their own population to raise money to buy industrial machinery that was also produced by capitalist countries!

So they actually didn't alleviate any of the abuses you're pointing to under capitalism. The imperialism and exploitation continued. The only thing they added to the mix was a new way to kill millions of people.

So yeah.... My point is and always has been that these policies are genocidal so pointing to them as a success story is implicitly endorsing genocide. Whether wolff claims to support the ussr or not. Like you, he says he doesn't. But then he says he isn't it impressive how fast they grew! That's the grift here and that's what I'm taking exception to.

I actually think it's more logical to be a tankie and just say the means justified the ends than it is to keep deflecting with "but capitalism..." There is actually a semi decent argument to be made that without the 5 year plan the soviets would've been completely strategically ****ed. But again that requires biting the bullet on the genocide.
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Old 04-28-2021, 04:11 AM   #399 (permalink)
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every nation has relied on "socialism" (a command economy) to get to the point where they can exploit other nations in what we call a "Free Market"

there isn't an element of the US economy that didn't use extraordinary protectionist measures and government initiative to thrive

it simply does not happen that "freedom" magically generates wealth...it's just a justification for inequality
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Old 04-28-2021, 05:35 AM   #400 (permalink)
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Let's cut to the chase... Are you saying you think soviet 5 year plan style industrialization is either preferable to capitalism or at the very least not less preferable? Because if not you are wasting your time here.

I'm trying to avoid the genocide olympics style pissing contest but iirc the single largest famine in human history that killed the most people in the shortest period of time happened in China during the great leap forward.

But that's not even my point... My point isn't that they killed the most people, its that their economic alternative to capitalism merely relied on the already existing global capitalist markets to use exports that they robbed from their own population to raise money to buy industrial machinery that was also produced by capitalist countries!

So they actually didn't alleviate any of the abuses you're pointing to under capitalism. The imperialism and exploitation continued. The only thing they added to the mix was a new way to kill millions of people.

So yeah.... My point is and always has been that these policies are genocidal so pointing to them as a success story is implicitly endorsing genocide. Whether wolff claims to support the ussr or not. Like you, he says he doesn't. But then he says he isn't it impressive how fast they grew! That's the grift here and that's what I'm taking exception to.

I actually think it's more logical to be a tankie and just say the means justified the ends than it is to keep deflecting with "but capitalism..." There is actually a semi decent argument to be made that without the 5 year plan the soviets would've been completely strategically ****ed. But again that requires biting the bullet on the genocide.
I'm saying exactly what I've said. Both economic systems have no scruples about murder. I really don't know why you're getting so bent out of shape.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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