Did Malcolm McLaren Invent Punk? (metal, pop, rock, genre)

655321 · 02-08-2008, 09:14 PM

it seems someone always has something to sayt about who invented punk, i say it started off wiht small bands someone noticed them then expoilted them

oo wait that is what happend and it happend in england, the east and west coast of the use around the same time

there is no single inventer

Urban Hat€monger ? · 02-08-2008, 10:07 PM

All McLaren did was find them a bass player in Glen Matlock , get them a record deal & talk a load of crap.

He didn't even have any creative control over them and when he tried to they'd just tell him to f*ck off.

People read far too much into the Great Rock n Roll Swindle movie.

Punk evolved , it didn't start.

ghostonstage135 · 02-18-2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger

Punk evolved , it didn't start.

Out of all the nonsensical stuff that has been discussed, I think this is the best quote.

Does it really matter? Punk today has become either very very poppy or a super distorted mess for the most part. So hats off to whoever started this movement that has been exploited by corporate companies to make them more money. lol punk got owned.

Lizzie · 02-08-2008, 11:20 PM

Yeah, I would not say at all that the Sex Pistols were the first punk band, for they weren't. They may have been the first British punk rock band, but certainly not the first band to be punk, so no matter if McLaren 'created' then or not, he did not create punk.

~~ADELE~~ · 02-09-2008, 02:47 AM

Morrissey saw the Pistols at the same gig in Manchester as Tony Wilson and The Buzz****s and many others on that strange night in the seventies including New Order and others and all formed bands as a result but Morrissey took a while to get hold of Marr. That is fact. The Clash put their formation down to the Pistols. Let's get real, the dolls were trying to be the stones and were not punk. The Stooges were more in line with Alice Cooper in fashion (somewhat) but punk exploded with the Pistols. I mean punk music not the word punk or the James dean punk type I mean the genre of music. And McClaren did more then just get Matlock for christ sake, he auditioned them, got them a deal, gigs created the whole thing. I know it isn't easy for some Americans to accept but we Brits invented what we now call punk. We also invented Rave!
I can almost already smell the rage and vitirol coming over the pond from Americans whose authors have convinced them that Talking Heads were a punk band ah ha ha!!!! let me have it then!

sleepy jack · 02-09-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADELE

Morrissey saw the Pistols at the same gig in Manchester as Tony Wilson and The Buzz****s and many others on that strange night in the seventies including New Order and others and all formed bands as a result but Morrissey took a while to get hold of Marr.

How does that work when it was Marr that got a hold of Morrissey? Are you even aware of what you're talking about? And wouldn't it be more proper to say Joy Division instead? Because somehow I don't picture hook and co. going "Well guys, we just saw the pistols lets form a band, we'll call it New Order" than running into Ian Curtis and going "Okay, lets ride this Joy Division thing for awhile and put New Order on pause for a bit." The gig was no doubt important but you should at least get your facts straight on it.

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That is fact. The Clash put their formation down to the Pistols.

Really? Because I've found nothing on that I really don't think they did. Strummer was in the 101ers and Rhodes and Jones were in London SS before the Sex Pistols even formed, so obviously they did nothing to peek their interest in music.

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Let's get real, the dolls were trying to be the stones and were not punk. The Stooges were more in line with Alice Cooper in fashion (somewhat) but punk exploded with the Pistols.

Are you talking about punks in terms of fashion now?

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I mean punk music not the word punk or the James dean punk type I mean the genre of music.

Than why are you unwilling to credit anyone to it but the Sex Pistols?

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And McClaren did more then just get Matlock for christ sake, he auditioned them, got them a deal, gigs created the whole thing. I know it isn't easy for some Americans to accept but we Brits invented what we now call punk. We also invented Rave!

I don't think any one band invented punk and there's much more intelligent arguments you could make it for it. It's pretty hard to tell everyone the Sex Pistols invented it when its common fact McClaren saw with Richard Hell was doing and took it to the UK and we had the Sex Pistols (something which you oddly dodged responding to.)

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I can almost already smell the rage and vitirol coming over the pond from Americans whose authors have convinced them that Talking Heads were a punk band ah ha ha!!!! let me have it then!

Despite the fact I've credited it more towards Richard Hell, The Ramones, The Stooges and The New York Dolls...

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I actually think the Ramones were the first punk band but that the genre was really made worldwide by the Pistols.

You're not even getting your own argument straight now.

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I am only winding them up to get a good response.

So now you openly admit to trolling, good job.

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Listen to Bonzo goes to bitburg and Outsider by the Ramones. Love those songs. But they were watching McClaren's moves and getting his ideas in New York.

The Ramones had their own sound well established before the Sex Pistols.

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I am not a fan of his in anyway but credit where credit is due. Just like Tony Wilson and the Rave scene. He did literally create a movement. Remember it was all bloody Rod Stewart and Queen and overblown utter Sh**e and heavy metal till out of the blue came the Pistols to utterly explode music into a whole new way of life.

Yes, he created a movement just like Lou Pearlman years later.

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We wouldn't be if it wasn't for the pistols. If they didn't exist we would not have a section called punk at all.

You realize the Sex Pistols had virtually nothing to do with that thriving scene in New York in the late 70s right? That scene which the Ramones were apart of?

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proto punk as the name suggests comes about after punk was established of there would be nothing to be proto about.

Proto = Before
Post = After

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And the bands in the US in the 70's were nowhere near punk in fashion or politics they were not political just junkies who wanted to be like Jagger and Richards what Rotten despised.

Television wanted to be like the Stones? The Ramones, who wanted to be a pop band like the Bay City Rollers, wanted to be like the Stones? Stop making idiotic statements.

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No politics in their music at all nothinbg for the kids to latch onto or shout about.

Punk is a genre of music, not a political statement. If this is about politics then lets look to Phil Ochs, Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger who make the Sex Pistols unintelligent anti-queen mess look childish.

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The US bands were just in it for money and drugs.

Once again another unfair generalization.

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he Jam were more MOD like the Who (two of the best bands ever) but punk is called punk and exists today in forum names and as a genre because of the sex pistols.

Even though it was a term and genre of music before the Sex Pistols?

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Why don't people ever accept the reality? Back up your arguements guys if you comment so I can tear your arguements apart!!! Great forum and debate. Keep it coming.

Here's the ironic part seeing as I'm backing up my argument more than you are.

~~ADELE~~ · 02-09-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crowquill

How does that work when it was Marr that got a hold of Morrissey? Are you even aware of what you're talking about? And wouldn't it be more proper to say Joy Division instead? Because somehow I don't picture hook and co. going "Well guys, we just saw the pistols lets form a band, we'll call it New Order" than running into Ian Curtis and going "Okay, lets ride this Joy Division thing for awhile and put New Order on pause for a bit." The gig was no doubt important but you should at least get your facts straight on it.
Yes I am aware of that but I assumed you would be too if you are into punk as they formed after the Manchester gig as Joy division and later New Order but I am talking about the attitude behind them all and Morrissey was there too but whether he found Marr of Marr found him is geek talk as he was inspired to make music and later formed the Smith's but cited them as inspiration (amoung others.)

Really? Because I've found nothing on that I really don't think they did. Strummer was in the 101ers and Rhodes and Jones were in London SS before the Sex Pistols even formed, so obviously they did nothing to peek their interest in music.

Yeah and have you seen pictures of them? They were trottling out crap and Strummer said he was past all that overblown crap and wanted something new and when he saw the pistols he was inspired. Listen to The album Story of the Clash and he says it on the Album between tracks then come back and take back your words okay. Of course people were in bands and into music. Everyone is into some kind of music. But the explosion of creativity and attitude that captured the planet was due to the Pistols like they all say Elvis invented rock n roll but chuck berry and others were around before him. But he made everyone young on the planet get into it.

Are you talking about punks in terms of fashion now?
Fasion music attitude politics anarchy creativity not been able to play that well to get your message across

Than why are you unwilling to credit anyone to it but the Sex Pistols?

Because noone would have heard of it except anoracks had it not been for the pistols and there would not today be a whole section of music about it.

I don't think any one band invented punk and there's much more intelligent arguments you could make it for it. It's pretty hard to tell everyone the Sex Pistols invented it when its common fact McClaren saw with Richard Hell was doing and took it to the UK and we had the Sex Pistols (something which you oddly dodged responding to.)

He didn't see what he was doing at all. He thought he was a prick. He just thought what a great idea it would be to get some kids and make them stars so perhaps he did form the first boy band. He created them (without realising their actual talent) as a marketing ploy and gimmick a glorious mess.

Despite the fact I've credited it more towards Richard Hell, The Ramones, The Stooges and The New York Dolls...

You're not even getting your own argument straight now.

So now you openly admit to trolling, good job.

No I don't admit to that.

The Ramones had their own sound well established before the Sex Pistols.

I will give the Ramones the title maybe. Perhaps it could be the Ramones. This is what debate is about my friend. I still think the pistols created the era and made it historic along with the Clash and others. I am talking about worldwide as a movement of ideals and politics and DIY music where kids felt inspired and formed bands.

Yes, he created a movement just like Lou Pearlman years later.

You realize the Sex Pistols had virtually nothing to do with that thriving scene in New York in the late 70s right? That scene which the Ramones were apart of?

It may have been thriving in one club for about 200 people but the pistols toured the mid west and their album got all america noticing and not just a club with a few hundred locals.

Proto = Before
Post = After

Was jesus the first punk or was it moses? where do you start? I am not into dictionary definitions

Television wanted to be like the Stones? The Ramones, who wanted to be a pop band like the Bay City Rollers, wanted to be like the Stones? Stop making idiotic statements.

Yes SIR!

Punk is a genre of music, not a political statement. If this is about politics then lets look to Phil Ochs, Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger who make the Sex Pistols unintelligent anti-queen mess look childish.

Politics is not just about intellgence as George W will testify. it is about an ideal or a vision or a revolution forcing change. Would the Ramones have changed anything really? But bloody great band.

Once again another unfair generalization.

Even though it was a term and genre of music before the Sex Pistols?

No it wasn't and it certainly would not have lasted and gained it's own niche if you credit the dolls and maclaren was their manager then what are you saying? WHAT ARE YOU SAYING? Think my friend think.

Here's the ironic part seeing as I'm backing up my argument more than you are.

I think it is now two nill to me!

right-track · 02-09-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADELE

I think it is now two nill to me!

While ethans draughting out a 3 page response, I have to ask the question...how?

right-track · 02-09-2008, 02:53 AM

I think you'll find that most Americans here are well informed and are well aware of Talking Heads place in music history and that it doesn't centre itself in the punk movement.
There were a good few bands that people were unsure of how to catagorise and ended up blending in with the punk scene.
I'm sure those bands weren't complaining either.

~~ADELE~~ · 02-09-2008, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by right-track

I think you'll find that most Americans here are well informed and are well aware of Talking Heads place in music history and that it doesn't centre itself in the punk movement.
There were a good few bands that people were unsure of how to catagorise and ended up blending in with the punk scene.
I'm sure those bands weren't complaining either.

Like Blondie blended in with the punk scene!
Then disco
Then rap!!!

Blending in is what opportunist bands do. Not influenced but simply going where the money is for money's sake.

I actually think the Ramones were the first punk band but that the genre was really made worldwide by the Pistols.
I am only winding them up to get a good response. Listen to Bonzo goes to bitburg and Outsider by the Ramones. Love those songs. But they were watching McClaren's moves and getting his ideas in New York. I am not a fan of his in anyway but credit where credit is due. Just like Tony Wilson and the Rave scene. He did literally create a movement. Remember it was all bloody Rod Stewart and Queen and overblown utter Sh**e and heavy metal till out of the blue came the Pistols to utterly explode music into a whole new way of life.

02-08-2008, 09:14 PM	#1 (permalink)
655321 i ruin threads Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: littleton newhampshire Posts: 110	it seems someone always has something to sayt about who invented punk, i say it started off wiht small bands someone noticed them then expoilted them oo wait that is what happend and it happend in england, the east and west coast of the use around the same time there is no single inventer __________________ Well there's one thing to know about this town Not a person doesn't want me underground

02-08-2008, 10:07 PM	#2 (permalink)
Urban Hat€monger ? The Sexual Intellectual Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Somewhere cooler than you Posts: 18,626	All McLaren did was find them a bass player in Glen Matlock , get them a record deal & talk a load of crap. He didn't even have any creative control over them and when he tried to they'd just tell him to fck off. People read far too much into the Great Rock n Roll Swindle movie. Punk evolved , it didn't start. __________________ Urb's RYM Stuff Most people sell their soul to the devil, but the devil sells his soul to Nick Cave.*

02-08-2008, 11:20 PM	#4 (permalink)
Lizzie Diskobox Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: vancouver Posts: 660	Yeah, I would not say at all that the Sex Pistols were the first punk band, for they weren't. They may have been the first British punk rock band, but certainly not the first band to be punk, so no matter if McLaren 'created' then or not, he did not create punk. __________________ white and black, are you looking for the sun boy? the sun doesn't shine down here, no, not in the shadow

02-09-2008, 02:47 AM	#5 (permalink)
~~ADELE~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: London Posts: 466	Morrissey saw the Pistols at the same gig in Manchester as Tony Wilson and The Buzz****s and many others on that strange night in the seventies including New Order and others and all formed bands as a result but Morrissey took a while to get hold of Marr. That is fact. The Clash put their formation down to the Pistols. Let's get real, the dolls were trying to be the stones and were not punk. The Stooges were more in line with Alice Cooper in fashion (somewhat) but punk exploded with the Pistols. I mean punk music not the word punk or the James dean punk type I mean the genre of music. And McClaren did more then just get Matlock for christ sake, he auditioned them, got them a deal, gigs created the whole thing. I know it isn't easy for some Americans to accept but we Brits invented what we now call punk. We also invented Rave! I can almost already smell the rage and vitirol coming over the pond from Americans whose authors have convinced them that Talking Heads were a punk band ah ha ha!!!! let me have it then!

02-09-2008, 02:53 AM	#9 (permalink)
right-track Atchin' Akai Join Date: May 2005 Location: Unamerica Posts: 8,769	I think you'll find that most Americans here are well informed and are well aware of Talking Heads place in music history and that it doesn't centre itself in the punk movement. There were a good few bands that people were unsure of how to catagorise and ended up blending in with the punk scene. I'm sure those bands weren't complaining either.