Spot on, there are a number of bands around that are crucial to different genres, but it also makes the differences between certain types of music a very thin line as well.

I mean look at the high regard that Iron Maiden are held in and then look at how they influenced thrash and also power metal. Thrash is held in high esteeem while power metal is often shunned. Its like punk and hair metal.

probably Mutiny by Set Your Goals

London Calling - The Clash
Raw Power - The Stooges
...And Out Comes the Wolves - Rancid

Raw Power and London Calling are more representative of proto and post punk, respectively. Both are fantastic albums, but punk isn't just a sound, which neither albums have entirely anyway, but it's a lifestyle. The Clash were a legitimate punk group, and if you went with previous releases I would agree, but this was a record where they transitioned into their next phase. The sound is well-produced, and finer, whereas their previous work had been raw and abrasive.

That said, London Calling is one of the best albums of that era.

The Stooges were raw, but hardly representative of punk. They were a major influence a la the previously mentioned New York Dolls, but definitely don't belong as a punk rock band.

Disagree for the most part. London Calling was still a revolution to punk. Maybe a catalyst to post, but with it they opened the doors to punk by innovating other styles in its genre. Strong elements of grated simplicity was still present.

As for Stooges, they were considerably noted as the first punk band, before punk became a trend. A lot of it was taken and shaped from their sound.

You basically hit it on the head as to why they're post/proto. The Stooges don't display the aesthetic or sound of punk entirely. The attitude is there, but they were more or less a rock band that set up future bands to create punk, but this is like calling Velvet Underground or even Pixies/Suicidal Tendencies' debut the first grunge works. They didn't have all of the elements.

Simplicity is there in London Calling, but the abrasiveness is not. It'd be like calling PIL's material punk because of Johnny Rotten's work with The Sex Pistols.

In fact, there isn't a song on the entire album I'd consider punk rock sounding. If it were recorded by any other non-punk band, I doubt it makes your list.

Nope it has nothing to do with who they are and what they have previously released. Honestly I think we are narrowing down too much with certain attribute to a certain definition. Only thing I was trying to point out was each had punk value. Clash still used the qualities in punk but just improvised it. They still had the image and joe definitely had the voice. Stooges I believe had it close aesthetically. Performances were wild, dangerous and unbecoming.

Proto/Post and Punk. All had qualities.

Guess I'll agree to just disagree.

That's fine, I'm just trying to help you out with your criteria. I've made my point though.

You guys are debating issues which have been debated countless times on here, on those occasions nobody left any the wiser.

Lets start with the Clash, there seems to be two schools of thought, one they were a punk band and the other they weren't but just carried the energy of punk (Stranglers fell into the same category) Anyways the first two albums fell into the punk category, but by London Calling they had stopped being called punk due to the sheer diversity of influences that were shown on that album. Personally, I'd just call them a punk band that that had evolved well beyond the majority of punk bands by their third album.

The Stooges, did they have the energy and attitude of the future punk movement well yes, but then again so did a lot of bands in the 1960s, but I would still call them proto-punk, simply because they were one of the biggest influences on the future punk movement.

As per before, you're just saying what I've been saying. The Clash circa-1977-1979 were perfect examples of punk. The aesthetic, the attitude, the sound. However, London Calling has few elements of that, they've got the attitude, but they present it with finesse.

Like we discussed with NYD earlier, The Stooges carry a lot of elements of punk, but not the full package. Obviously, music is ambiguous, but I was attempting to be constructive, not argumentative.