That's alright by me, understandable. Like I said I didn't get the privilege to experience that here. So I've had the beneficial side. Sorry it wasn't the same for you so I'll cease to discuss. Opening up different points is good though, so thanks.

I have no problem continuing the discussion, that's why I'm here as well, to discuss music and agree/disagree with others, and explain why.

of course I know who the Sweet are

my father always sang that "hootchie haka wu" bit from "Co-Co" to me as a baby

Since Marilyn Manson (probably wrongly) claimed The Doors were the first Punk band, could I throw their debut into the hat?

Manson is a pretentious dick. The Doors were a great band IMO, maybe their attitude influenced punk rock, but that's about all I can think of. Morrison would have made a fabulous punk/hardcore frontman (he's Glenn Danzig's biggest influence) but yeah, I think they're a long ways off from punk. Marilyn Manson probably thinks he's a real punk rocker.

Oh I certainly agree, but I think the attitude of The Doors could qualify them.

Agree that their attitude is the first of it's kind. People talk about how The Stones had attitude, The Doors simply didn't give a ****. Morrison is a huge influence on punk.

What's the general opinion of Refused on here?

^I would think everyone loves them, but I don't really know.

Refused are overrated. While "Shape of Punk to Come" is a decent album, and one of the better ones from Epitaph, it is still hardly new or groundbreaking. Maybe in the context of the time it was released it was, but in the grand scheme of things, had been done before... Nation of Ulysses come to mind as a band who did it before them, sure not with a lot of the electronics or what not... but still the style was there.

I like Refused, but I do not get the hype they receive still. I found the majority of "Shape..." to be rather boring. Had a great single in "New Noise" and the rest was just alright.