Ghost Jam

THey are most certainly punk acts.

-Ghost Jam

The Batlord

Honestly I do listen to them all in the same sort of way as I listen to the Sex Pistols or the Clash, but I just mean that Television were integral to the founding of a legitimate punk scene, so I think they should get a pass even if their sound isn't quite what one thinks of when one thinks of punk.

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Forward To Death

They aren't punk though, they're proto punk. If it was punk, we would call those bands the first punk rock bands, and not the Ramones or The Sex Pistols or The Clash.

Punk is not just music, not that those bands sound very punk anyways, but it's also an image that none of those bands had.

Rjinn

I often find it nit picky with this "no it's proto-punk" thing. I don't really understand the big deal. There's very little difference a lot of the time.

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xXAngelFireXx

This couldn't be anymore incorrect. The only musical concept that even tied punk rock and it's sub genre's together is lyrical content. Proto-punk is usually associated with art-rock, and produces a large range of sounds that aren't exclusive to a set style like it's limited derivative son. The political consciousness isn't nearly as intense either, and there wasn't really a scene tied to it.

Also, I would have to say The Fall-Hex Enduction Hour if we're including post-punk.

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xXAngelFireXx

Why not?

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Rjinn

There are a lot of "protopunk" artists who are usually considered "punk." Patti Smith, The Stooges, Television and even Talking Heads to name a few. Since everyone is so precise on genres but, ok. The word punk used to be thrown around different bands before it became defined and a scene. That's when they coined it "protopunk" afterwards.

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Forward To Death

Yes, I also understand you consider London Calling a top punk album.

It's not nitpicky, it's just being mildly observant of styles, and The Stooges, Patti Smith, MC5 aren't punk. Talking Heads sure as **** ain't, either. If you want to merge all the genres together because they have significance to one another, then let's just label everything pop/rock. Or are you suggesting that we only nitpick to what you deem reasonable?

Honestly, The Stooges sound more like a garage rock band trying to make it into the 70s, the New York Dolls sound like glam rock, and any other "proto-punk" band you can throw at me? There's a genre that fits them much better than punk, please blee dat.

Rjinn

Wow, you're completely blowing what I said out of proportion.
Yes I did say that a long while ago, your point?

The Stooges are quite often regarded as the first punk band. Patti Smith partly activated the New York punk movement. I'm only passing on what I've researched. Whether you don't think so, that's your reasons. I personally don't think TH are punk but they've been held to the label.

So I've started discussing the fine difference between certain protopunk and punk bands and all of a sudden we should merge entire music genres?

Ok well let me be a little bit more observant. Protopunk, post-punk, art punk, punk blues, pop punk, hardcore punk, gothic-punk, crust punk, Christian punk, glam punk, street punk.

I didn't mean it as an offence, but yes, how else would you deem an opinion?

Cool. Sometimes The Stooges are considered garage punk and the NYD glam punk which I think is pretty fitting, but it's not a big deal to me.

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The Batlord

Television and the Ramones started out at the same time, in the same place, playing in the SAME CLUB. Why on earth should you need to call one punk and one proto-punk?

You're right, it's a media created catch word, like "grunge", with it's own made up fashion sense and group of mindless followers. Separating bands that were contemporaries and that played the same places and that were in the same scene and that evolved on similar musical lines into different musical categories is just silly.

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