Crowquill

I want to be clear, when I said hardcore, I'm referring pretty exclusively to approximately 80-84 (the first wave of hardcore.) I agree with you this changed dramatically by the late eighties, with crossover thrash bands, post-hardcore bands, et cetera. I was responding to Forward to Death's question about how it was founded as a sound though, which was simplistic rock and not the genre-bending stuff we see today. Hardcore now is all over the place now (obviously - you can take almost any word and add "core" to it and probably find a band it applies to.)

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Forward To Death

The earliest bands were heavily influenced by jazz though, so I don't quite get that hardcore was somehow "simpler" from 1980-1984. What would you consider to be the first hardcore album? Most consider it Bad Brains' self-titled, which definitely has a jazz influence, and is certainly not the simplistic rock that you're saying generalizes most of the genre. Maybe Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables, which I guess is pretty rock influenced, but I never really considered them to be one of the jazzy hardcore bands anyways. Bad Brains, Black Flag, NoMeansNo, heck even the Suicidal Tendencies S/T is more intricate than what I'd consider "simplistic rock". That's 4 of the most influential early hardcore bands right there.

Crowquill

Um, I don't think most people consider Bad Brains self-titled the first hardcore release. Damaged, Hardcore '81, Group Sex, Adolescents, Reagan's In, and Dance With Me had already been released by the time it came out. Most people I know interested in hardcore consider Out of Vogue by Middle Class to be the first hardcore release. Legs McNeil and American Hardcore state the same. Black Flag were branded sell outs in most of the hardcore scene by the mid-80s. Rollins has some pretty brutal stories about that and they didn't start getting that experimental until My War in '84. It's extremely misleading to claim the First Four Years is heavily influenced by jazz. When people talk about Black Flag's jazz influence I pretty much see them referring to The Process of Weeding Out or like Family Man, not Jealous AgainI and Nervous Breakdown as you're implying. If you think the vast majority hardcore bands sound like NoMeansNo and not the Circle Jerks, alright then, you clearly know more than me. You probably have a better idea where it started but I've never seen Suicidal Tendencies credited as a hardcore punk without the label crossover thrash following. So I wouldn't use them to define hardcore punk personally.

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Forward To Death

What would you say are elements of hardcore? I think it's fairly obvious that punk rock would be the number one influence on hardcore punk, but okay, let's keep pretending that I called it the predominant influence behind the genre. What would you say are the most common elements within the genre? Isn't it that it's a faster paced, heavier version of punk rock, and that's what makes it "hardcore"? I think that's pretty much the formula for jazz, is that it was created by bluesmen who wanted to do something more upbeat, and with more emphasis on rhythm (hardcore rhythm section is typically sped up, this is why many consider thrash metal to be a cross between hardcore and metal). So you could argue that it's definitely influenced across the board by jazz. You could argue that punk is influenced by jazz, since 50s rock/r&b like Chuck Berry and surf rock bands from the 60s were directly influenced by jazz.

Also I don't even know why you would mention The First Four Years, which is clearly a punk album, and one I never mentioned or implied being jazz-influenced once as you claim, but now that I've made the argument, I guess it is kind of jazz-influenced.

Also, listen to Suicidal's first album and tell me it isn't hardcore punk. Just for reference though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicidal_Tendencies_(album) "Genre - Hardcore Punk".