Why is "Post-Punk" even considered "Punk"?

**Frownland** · 07-07-2016, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Well, they were a couple different things over the course of their career, but I think you can make the case for Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, and Animals as prog albums. The stuff before that I'd consider psychedelic, and the stuff after I'd consider, I guess, art rock.

I still think that Dark Side and Wish You Were Here were both overwhelmingly psychedelic despite having elements that you might subscribe to a prog band, and I guess you could say those are their most progishest albums. However, I've always thought that Animals was one of the more inappropriately deemed prog album because I just don't think that concept albums and lengthy tracks belong only to prog.

I say that Pink Floyd is to prog as Alice in Chains is to grunge. Both are very widely regarded as such, but both seem to miss very key elements of the genre that they're supposedly a part of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGuy Grungeman

But the thing is you're not THINKING about what makes prog prog.

Says the guy who says "but all these other people say it is, so it must be!"

Quote:

Prog is about provoking-thought

I really needed that.

Quote:

Bottom line is, you can disbelieve it all you want, but prog wouldn't be prog without the real pioneers of prog and its customs, customs which Pink Floyd did better than most bands during the 70's.

Ignore my point about how you can influence a genre without being a part of it again, please. I really love it when you do things like that.

JGuy Grungeman · 07-07-2016, 10:12 PM

You just said Alice in Chains wasn't grunge. Somebody call a psychiatrist!

I already explained to you the custom of Floyd and their connectiom to prog. That's the only reason why I believe the fanbase was right. I'm only saying I'd more quickly take their side based on what prog means to me. You'd be the one without the brain if you not only deny the things that connect them, but totally forget them after they were just explained to you.

Plus, since when did AiC not have the lazy vocal delivery, teenage angst and emotion, extremely raspy lead guitars, and social concern/deep emotion related topics, and metal influence that are the key factors of grunge?

**Janszoon** · 07-07-2016, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

I still think that Dark Side and Wish You Were Here were both overwhelmingly psychedelic despite having elements that you might subscribe to a prog band, and I guess you could say those are their most progishest albums. However, I've always thought that Animals was the most inappropriately deemed prog album because I just don't think that concept albums and lengthy tracks belong only to prog.

I consider DSotM and WYWH both pretty distinct from their earlier definitely psychedelic albums. The rootsy underpinnings and 60s pop rock sensibilities of psychedelic music were gone by that time—replaced by more a intricate and controlled style, a wider range of influences, heavy use of synths, big concepts, the occasional odd time signature, etc.

Animals was moving more in the direction of the art rock that followed—and was a deliberate response to punk on their part—but still had long tracks with multiple movements, a noticeable jazz influence, heavy use of various keyboards, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

I say that Pink Floyd is to prog as Alice in Chains is to grunge. Both are very widely regarded as such, but both seem to miss very key elements of the genre that they're supposedly a part of.

I'd say the bigger similarity is that both are very vaguely defined genres.

JGuy Grungeman · 07-07-2016, 10:26 PM

Just because grunge was quite accepting of combining the sound with other genres, that doesn't mean it's vague. These other genres blended with grungw didn't make a new grunge sound. It just blended elements so that a band could show off skill un both. Otherwise, grunge would have a few subgenres. Grunge metal, grunge punk, alternative grunge and all that aren't real terms. AiC was never called "grunge metal." They are considered metal, alternative, or grunge.

**Janszoon** · 07-07-2016, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGuy Grungeman

Just because grunge was quite accepting of combining the sound with other genres, that doesn't mean it's vague. These other genres blended with grungw didn't make a new grunge sound. It just blended elements t-so that a band could show off skill un both. Otherwise, grunge would have a few subgenres. Grunge metal, grunge punk, alternative grunge and all that aren't real terms.

No, it's vague. It was just a marketing catchall term that had more to do with region and fanbase than it did to a particular sound.

JGuy Grungeman · 07-07-2016, 10:32 PM

Misconception alert. I have an article on the sound of grunge. I'll show it to you tomorrow.

grindy · 07-07-2016, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGuy Grungeman

Let's count how many times he's replied to one of my posts.

Anyway, I'd say Pink Floyd are prog for these reasons:

1. Topics/messages that revolve around the mind, such as DSOTM with the concept of lunacy, or The Wall with the lead character building a mental wall around himself to completely isolate himself from society.

2. Songs that are seperated into parts, such as Genesis' "Domino," 2112, the "Twelve Step Suite" of Dream Theater (inspired by Rush's "Fear"), and Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall.

3. Long songs with long instrumentals. Take the whole King Crimson album and many Dream Theater albums. Pink Floyd does thislongetivity sometimes although not necessarily carrying long solos all of the time, most notably with "Time" and the tracks from "Animals." Heck, take "Shine On You Crazy Diamond."

4. Many prog albums are concept albums. Rush, Dream Theater, Pink Floyd, Avantasia, Queensryche, Genesis,and many other prog bands write them.

5. I've noticed a lot of prog bands like King Crimson, Genesis (70's), Dream Theater (for a metal band), Neal Morse, and others are a bit slow-paced.

This is something I wrote on another site a couple years ago. I wernt and dug it up.

Well excuse me for mainly defining genre by musical characteristics, instead of stuff like "very specific kind of teenage angst".
Some of their songs are slightly proggish. That's it.

JGuy Grungeman · 07-07-2016, 10:40 PM

Is that an argument or the result of a diaper accident?

I'll send you the article, too. And you'll get a fairly good explanation on the specifics of grunge's form of angst.

**Frownland** · 07-07-2016, 10:43 PM

Why Pink Floyd were not prog

Hey guys look I have an article. My opinion (which agreed with this article before I found it) is automatically factual because this article is what I formed my opinion from.

grindy · 07-07-2016, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGuy Grungeman

Is that an argument or the result of a diaper accident?

I'll send you the article, too. And you'll get a fairly good explanation on the specifics of grunge's form of angst.

That was uncalled for.
I also know and care way too little about Grunge to want to enter that debate. It was just an example of the non-musical arguments you seem to be prefering in such discussions. Not that stuff like that doesn't matter at all, but it's kinda secondary.

07-07-2016, 10:12 PM	#202 (permalink)
JGuy Grungeman Primo Celebate Sexiness Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,662	You just said Alice in Chains wasn't grunge. Somebody call a psychiatrist! I already explained to you the custom of Floyd and their connectiom to prog. That's the only reason why I believe the fanbase was right. I'm only saying I'd more quickly take their side based on what prog means to me. You'd be the one without the brain if you not only deny the things that connect them, but totally forget them after they were just explained to you. Plus, since when did AiC not have the lazy vocal delivery, teenage angst and emotion, extremely raspy lead guitars, and social concern/deep emotion related topics, and metal influence that are the key factors of grunge? __________________ I'm a pretty nice troll if you ask me.

07-07-2016, 10:26 PM	#204 (permalink)
JGuy Grungeman Primo Celebate Sexiness Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,662	Just because grunge was quite accepting of combining the sound with other genres, that doesn't mean it's vague. These other genres blended with grungw didn't make a new grunge sound. It just blended elements so that a band could show off skill un both. Otherwise, grunge would have a few subgenres. Grunge metal, grunge punk, alternative grunge and all that aren't real terms. AiC was never called "grunge metal." They are considered metal, alternative, or grunge. __________________ I'm a pretty nice troll if you ask me.

07-07-2016, 10:32 PM	#206 (permalink)
JGuy Grungeman Primo Celebate Sexiness Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,662	Misconception alert. I have an article on the sound of grunge. I'll show it to you tomorrow. __________________ I'm a pretty nice troll if you ask me.

07-07-2016, 10:40 PM	#208 (permalink)
JGuy Grungeman Primo Celebate Sexiness Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,662	Is that an argument or the result of a diaper accident? I'll send you the article, too. And you'll get a fairly good explanation on the specifics of grunge's form of angst. __________________ I'm a pretty nice troll if you ask me.

07-07-2016, 10:43 PM	#209 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,548	Why Pink Floyd were not prog Hey guys look I have an article. My opinion (which agreed with this article before I found it) is automatically factual because this article is what I formed my opinion from. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x