Rainard Jalen

Now THAT I'll dispute. The songs in general use neither blues progressions nor blues-inspired melodies. And generally they don't sing about being "blue", either, any more than any other genre of music. In fact the lyrics are usually about topics the pretty damn opposite of being "blue".

Even if your argument in that respect holds, it fails to explain or justify the application of the term as it is frequently used: i.e., as an umbrella term to cover ALL music that have singing (as opposed to rap) over hip-hop drum beats.

DontRunMeOver

I was just thinking, I'm going from the categorisation as they have them in record shops here. I think a lot of what is listed as R'n'B in America, but which sounds like pop, just gets put straight into the pop section in the UK so there might be some crossed wires between the two of us.

I'll go and have a look.

__________________

DontRunMeOver

Looking at the first list I found (http://www.onlylyrics.com/g_rnb1.php) which was the first one I saw.... There are some who do use a lot of blue (note: blue, not traditional 'blues') notes and themes and some who don't. The ones who don't are the same ones that would be straight in the 'pop' section over here anyway.

Now, I'm suggesting here that the majority of western music uses melodies, scales and harmonies which can be roughly categorised as:

Classical (straightforward major or minor scales and chord structures)
Folk (modes)
Jazz
Blues

In which most pop acts fall on the classical side, using the major or minor scales in a pretty straightforward way. From memory, the melodies for songs like 'Hit Me Baby One More Time' (Britney) and 'You And Your Hand' (Pink) wouldn't sound very out of place as the theme to some Rimsky Korsakov Russian nationlist stomper, in that they make very clear use of minor scales and are very on-note.

Back to the list,

some of the singers just sing pop music. It's major of minor melodies, maybe it has sad themes but then so does lots of non-blues music:

Monica (from what I remember hearing)
Jamelia
Kelly Rowland

Are all, from the music I've heard in the last few years, just pop. I'm pretty sure they are in the pop section in shops over here, not R'n'B. Either way, that's where I'd put them.

On the other hand.

Ashanti
Kelis
Amerie
Lemar
Beyonce
John Legend
Amy Winehouse
Corinne Bailey Rae
Mary J Blige

All have lots of blue notes and in their music. I'm not claiming they have BB King solos, sing about shootin' their woman or meeting the devil at the crossroads. But why would they? Most of the singers are women who live a long way from any rural intersections. A lot of the harmonies, rhythms and melodies ARE derived from blues* ... if they're not from there then where ARE they from?

*Ok, gospel too, which may be more classical than blues.


If it's got rhythm (the drum beats) and it's got blues inspired singing (with which gospel-inspired vocals end up being grouped largely because the singers are also black) then the name R'n'B, I repeat, is not an unrealistic name to give it. Yes, I expect there are better names that it could have and some people have issue with the current name. But R'n'B is the name that has stuck and it's not a completely innacurate one.

__________________

Rainard Jalen

Ok, your argument is fair enough. The label isn't really completely inaccurate; my own view though is that as an ALL-ENCOMPASSING term, "Urban Pop" does the job a whole lot better. Especially considering that you frequently even find tracks like Akon's "Smack That" being called R'n'B.

As for the harmonies, I think that the reference to gospel you made was a good point - actually I think the harmonies are arguably more gospel-derived than blues-derived. Though above all, I'd say that the harmonies show more 80s soul influence (though yeah, you could equally point out that soul was partly derived from the blues - though it went its own way).

Incidentally, I seem to remember that when this sort of music started getting more mainstream in the early/mid nineties (such as back when Adina Howard's "Freak Like Me" was all the rage), people I knew would refer to it as "swing", or even "hip hop" (as in soul with hip hop beats) - I never heard the term R'n'B being used really popularly until a good deal later down the line. Though maybe I just missed it.

Moon Pix

We don't we really use R n' B as a term to classify music over here. All of that stuff gets filed under Urban which is a f***ing stupid name because the Velvet Underground were about as urbanised as you can get (they were from New York for christs sake!) yet theyre in the rock/pop section.

You never Dock Boggs and Woody Guthrie filed under the Rural section do you?

Id call it contemporary soul but I don't think theres much soul in a lot of it so its a misnomer.

__________________
There’s a dream that I see, I pray it can be
Look 'cross the land, shake this land - "Maybe Not", C. Marshall

Rainard Jalen

Yeah, well good points there. Urban is a difficult term, too. I guess it refers to urban more in the sense of music with "street" culture influences as opposed to suburban.

ryder

i never thought when they use the term urban & got it confused with suburban. whoever thinks that is not to smart. ya can clearly tell urban has something to do with street. but you'll see some music classifid as it when it really isnt.

Moon Pix

They did have "street" influences, they had a song about going uptown to score smack. Thats a bit of "street" reporting every bit as much as the rap stuff.

__________________
There’s a dream that I see, I pray it can be
Look 'cross the land, shake this land - "Maybe Not", C. Marshall

Frances

R&H? Harmony? Maybe but blues? nope! I disagree with this genre name completely.

__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Yup.

Rainard Jalen

Going uptown to SCORE it = surburban
Going uptown to SELL it = urban