Terrapin_Station

You're not an objectivist or something are you?

Key

No, but I have ears. And while listening to Led Zeppelin is already a snoozefest, the inability to handle a guitar is thrown into the equation.

Terrapin_Station

You don't care for his guitar playing. I do. I feel he's one of the 10 best.

There are no facts about this. We're talking about how we feel about his playing.

One can't know that someone can or can't play well, that something is good or bad--knowledge claims require truth values (propositional knowledge is justified true belief), and there are no truth values for evaluative assessments a la good, bad, better, worse, etc.

Key

While music itself is up for interpretation whether it is good or not, guitar playing isn't always up for interpretation. There is a specific standard to be held to when playing guitar, and again, I say this fully knowing that Jimmy Page is a good guitar player, never said he wasnt, I only said that it's a shame that he's not up to par with what could be considered one of the greats, but to put him in the top 10 is showing your ignorance toward guitar players that can actually play both technically and melodically.

Terrapin_Station

Yes it is. I'm not just talking about aesthetics above. Evaluative statements a la good, bad, better, worse, etc. PERIOD are noncognitive. They have no truth values. Or we could say that they're subjective--they're not extramental facts.Insofar as that's the case, it's subjective. It's an agreement (among the people who agree and can exert some social influence about this) about how people FEEL about guitar playing (or whatever we might be talking about if we make it broader). It's an agreement about what people prefer or not. That's subjective. Nothing is factually correct or incorrect, true or false, just because people agree on it. To claim otherwise is to commit the argumentum ad populum fallacy. So you are an objectivist to an extent. But objectivism is factually incorrect on this stuff, because it's an extramental fact of the world that there are no extramental facts regarding whether anything is good, bad, better, worse, etc. Rather, your view about this is showing your complete imbecility when it comes to the ontology of this stuff.

Frownland

Some of my favourite guitarists sound like they've never played a guitar before in their life to the untrained ear.

__________________

Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Key

We may end up needing to agree to disagree to stay away from further name calling, which I did start, and I apologize. But if the bold were true, guitar lessons would be completely irrelevant. And again, I want to focus on the fact that I have admitted a few times that Jimmy Page is not a mediocre guitar player, but he's certainly not skilled in the art to be considered one of the best. He's sloppy a lot of the time, and the only thing he's particularly amazing at is creating a rhythm that the rest of the band can feed off of. I don't even want to mention songwriting because it's been mentioned here before. But the ability to play guitar isn't always subjective if you take into fact that many of the greats spent their whole lives trying to master their craft.

Blank.

Well, if they are I think it still goes to Page. Both of these guys aren't very good at playing but wrote some extremely iconic riffs.

Key

I don't disagree with this at all. I know you're not part of the point I'm making, but I just find it hard to understand why people would put Jimmy Page in their top 10, when most guitar players exceed Jimmy Page in almost all ways.

Chula Vista

Jane, you ignorant slut.

The bad rap that Page gets is based off of mostly shows during the 75 and 77 tours where he was getting too wasted and as a result, sloppy.

His playing on the albums is both technical and brilliant for that genre. Have you ever sat down and tried to learn solos like Achilles Last Stand, Since I've been Loving You, Black Dog, and yes, even Stairway to Heaven? His note choices, the subtle little ways he accents his bends, his vibrato, and how the melody perfectly fits the song is much harder to replicate that you think.

Back then I could play Sabbath, Aerosmith, Nugent, UFO, ZZ Top, etc. well before I was able to accurately pull off Page.

And the vast majority of his live playing is ridiculously good. Ever listened to How The West Was Won? The solo on this is killer!

__________________

“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”