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Old 06-23-2009, 05:24 PM   #61 (permalink)
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no worries dude. at this point we're venturing off into personal philosophies on playing music though.

as far as teaching yourself to play the guitar, tabs are where it's at. period.

everything else at that point in the game is superfluous.

you just happen to be well ahead of the curve in relation to your peers. don't swear it, they'll either have lighting bolt moments later on in life or stick to being bedroom shredders. there's nothing wrong with being in a cover band either, successfully imitating professional level entertainers DOES require a certain kind of skill, especially if you cover a wide range of material and styles. not everyone wants to be the next big thing, some people just like playing along and leave the creativity to other people.



oh yeah, my stack of guitar magazines went taller than my knee (i'm 6'3" at that)

I will have to disagree with you, strongly at that.

Tabs:

1. Spoil you.

2. Usually give you the wrong information unless you've got an official tab book for a given record.

The best way to go, for both amateur/self-taught musicians AND professional musicians is transcribing (by ear that is). It trains you on so many levels. Together with transcribing you'll need some theory to help you figure out stuff quickly. Knowing the major and minor-pentatonic scales, knowing that most songs nowadays are played in the keys of A, E, Eb and D, and knowing the basic major/minor chord shapes is enough for you to be able to transcribe most modern songs and understand how most songs work in general.

PS. Official tabs are a good way to check how close your transcribing is to the original material, so yes, in that way they are very helpful.
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:55 PM   #62 (permalink)
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I will have to disagree with you, strongly at that.

Tabs:

1. Spoil you.

2. Usually give you the wrong information unless you've got an official tab book for a given record.

The best way to go, for both amateur/self-taught musicians AND professional musicians is transcribing (by ear that is). It trains you on so many levels. Together with transcribing you'll need some theory to help you figure out stuff quickly. Knowing the major and minor-pentatonic scales, knowing that most songs nowadays are played in the keys of A, E, Eb and D, and knowing the basic major/minor chord shapes is enough for you to be able to transcribe most modern songs and understand how most songs work in general.

PS. Official tabs are a good way to check how close your transcribing is to the original material, so yes, in that way they are very helpful.
i have to assume you've never read a guitar magazine.

1 - tabs 'spoil' a musician about as much as a teacher who just shows them how to play a song without explaining the theory behind it.

2 - see my first comment. you really think guitar world would be asking for the better part of $10 per issue so it could publish tabs it lifted off ultimate-guitar.com? you think it would still publish a monthly print magazine if it ran incorrect tabs?

how do you propose for someone who has no formal training to transcribe by ear? how do you learn scales and chord shapes without taking a lesson or learning them from a magazine / online article first? how are tabs (the magazine version) not a worthwhile method of learning these basic elements?

like i've said a few times already in this thread. not everyone wants to understand the fundamentals of the instrument, some people just want to play along and tabs are more than effective at getting you started to that point. if you want more than that, then yeah you'll obviously need to start learning some theory, how one chooses to do that is up to the individual. even if you chose to ignore the theory that does NOT mean you have not taught yourself how to play the instrument.


i think you're definition of self-taught runs counter to how most people on here consider it. self-taught = learning to play without a teacher. the idea that being self-taught means you transcribed songs by ear is just weird.
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:08 PM   #63 (permalink)
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i have to assume you've never read a guitar magazine.

1 - tabs 'spoil' a musician about as much as a teacher who just shows them how to play a song without explaining the theory behind it.

2 - see my first comment. you really think guitar world would be asking for the better part of $10 per issue so it could publish tabs it lifted off ultimate-guitar.com? you think it would still publish a monthly print magazine if it ran incorrect tabs?

how do you propose for someone who has no formal training to transcribe by ear? how do you learn scales and chord shapes without taking a lesson or learning them from a magazine / online article first? how are tabs (the magazine version) not a worthwhile method of learning these basic elements?

like i've said a few times already in this thread. not everyone wants to understand the fundamentals of the instrument, some people just want to play along and tabs are more than effective at getting you started to that point. if you want more than that, then yeah you'll obviously need to start learning some theory, how one chooses to do that is up to the individual. even if you chose to ignore the theory that does NOT mean you have not taught yourself how to play the instrument.


i think you're definition of self-taught runs counter to how most people on here consider it. self-taught = learning to play without a teacher. the idea that being self-taught means you transcribed songs by ear is just weird.
first of all, i don't remember saying that you need a teacher, i said you need your ears. second, i don't care about the specifics of where you get your tabs. I already told you, I'm cool with someone using legit tabs, as long as they're not the first thing you grab. Even if you want to play music just for fun and nothing else, transcribing will help you get the song right much better than a tab will (tabs don't include timing/meter, they don't tell you how loud/quiet to play a note, etc. and those things are essential to playing a song properly). How is my definition counter to what most people consider here? I said exactly what you said, which is that self-taught = no teacher. When did I ever say you need a teacher? Transcribing is among the most essential elements of being a self-taught musician. Every successful/good self-taught musician transcribes music, a lot. Every good musician in general does so. Read up on transcribing, understand what it is and how important it is.


Yo do not need any training whatsoever to transcribe by ear. Like I said, a basic knowledge of theory helps, but if that is not necessary. You train yourself to transcribe.
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:13 PM   #64 (permalink)
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I see what Luby is saying about Tabs spoiling you.

Obviously I grew up in a time when I couldn't go to ultimate-guitar and learn to play anything instantly, so I'd sit by the record player and listen over and over again tryig to find the right riff or progression, it certainly made me a better player.

That said, I'll take today's way anytime,so much quicker and more instantly gratifying
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:19 PM   #65 (permalink)
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i'm only going to ask this one more time - how is someone supposed to transcribe music without knowing how to play the instrument in the first place?

if you've taken lessons and had a teacher show you the basic chord shapes and scales then you're not self-taught. if you picked up a book / magazine / webpage and figured out those chord shapes and scales on your own then you ARE self-taught. of course someone else has to write those lessons, but that doesn't mean you aren't the one who taught yourself the knowledge within those lessons. otherwise i was taught how to play guitar by billy corgan, john petrucci, kirk hammet, and dimebag darrell...

...and there's no timing/meter or dynamics in tabs? again. you've obviously never read a guitar magazine.
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:20 PM   #66 (permalink)
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I see what Luby is saying about Tabs spoiling you.

Obviously I grew up in a time when I couldn't go to ultimate-guitar and learn to play anything instantly, so I'd sit by the record player and listen over and over again tryig to find the right riff or progression, it certainly made me a better player.

That said, I'll take today's way anytime,so much quicker and more instantly gratifying

Yes, it is instantly gratifying, but it is not quicker in the long run. The way I study songs nowadays is transcribing by ear first, then checking with tabs. I can figure out the basic progression to most songs in no time, and I'm sure that would be helpful for anyone, even those who just play for fun and nothing else.
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:20 PM   #67 (permalink)
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I see what Luby is saying about Tabs spoiling you.
that's like blaming mcdonald's for being a fatso.

it's up to the individual to determine what sort of knowledge they glean from the resources they have available.
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:23 PM   #68 (permalink)
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no one is self-taught nowadays. Self-taught = transcribing songs by ear and/or watching musicians play live, etc. If you learned how to play from online lessons, you're not exactly self-taught, because it's the person(s) in the videos who gave you all the tips, techniques, theory, etc. However, regardless of how much someone teaches you, it's up to you and your practice to make yourself a good musician. I don't think you need official lessons to become good, lots of great guitarists never had a lesson.
But this is how I define self-taught. I teach myself songs by ear. Isn't that exactly what you're saying?
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Old 06-23-2009, 06:24 PM   #69 (permalink)
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that's like blaming mcdonald's for being a fatso.

it's up to the individual to determine what sort of knowledge they glean from the resources they have available.
Actually yes it is exactly like that.

Good Point, I wasn't blaming so much though, just relating.
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If you're posting in the music forums make sure to be thoughtful and expressive, if you're posting in the lounge ask yourself "is this something that adds to the conversation?" It's important to remember that a lot of people use each thread. You're probably not as funny or clever as you think, I know I'm not.

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Old 06-23-2009, 06:25 PM   #70 (permalink)
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i'm only going to ask this one more time - how is someone supposed to transcribe music without knowing how to play the instrument in the first place?

if you've taken lessons and had a teacher show you the basic chord shapes and scales then you're not self-taught. if you picked up a book / magazine / webpage and figured out those chord shapes and scales on your own then you ARE self-taught. of course someone else has to write those lessons, but that doesn't mean you aren't the one who taught yourself the knowledge within those lessons. otherwise i was taught how to play guitar by billy corgan, john petrucci, kirk hammet, and dimebag darrell...

...and there's no timing/meter or dynamics in tabs? again. you've obviously never read a guitar magazine.
you transcribe music by grabbing the guitar and playing the note that you hear. you pick one set of notes, you play them. then you pick another set of notes, you play them over the previous set, and you get harmony. Yes, when you read a magazine, you are self-taught. When you watch a video of a guy telling you how to play, you're not exactly self-taught, because that's pretty close to a real face-to-face teacher/student experience (although, there is no feedback). Yes, there is no timing/meter in tabs. Official/legit tabs usually come together with sheet music. That's where you get your timing/meter.
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