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Old 01-05-2012, 09:52 AM   #21 (permalink)
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What's your point? Mine was that it's pretty hard to talk about album flow when you're referring a four song EP and pretty hard to talk about songwriting when a big percentage of the music consists of non-original material.
my mistake, actually, i should have specified "flow" for Dimension Hattross, even if some solos were speeded up

Surf Nicaragua has better quality in its four songs
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:35 AM   #22 (permalink)
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my mistake, actually, i should have specified "flow" for Dimension Hattross, even if some solos were speeded up
It's been a while since I've listened to that album but my recollection is that I was extremely underwhelmed by it. But imo it's pretty hard to beat the flow of Reign in Blood. The songs lead into each other incredibly well, just listen to the "Piece By Piece"/"Necrophobic"/"Altar of Sacrifice"/"Jesus Saves" flow for example. Or consider their decision to begin side two with the slow, menacing intro of "Criminally Insane". Most importantly, listen to how the entire pummeling experience of the bulk of the album builds it's way up to that one massive drum hit near the end of "Postmortem", a pause, a final blast of fury, and then the wide open expanse of "Rain in Blood".

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Surf Nicaragua has better quality in its four songs
As we discussed earlier, one of those songs is a cover that you don't even like, so that leaves three songs to compare to all ten tracks of Reign in Blood. Those three songs are good, albeit not very different from the music put out by other second-tier thrash bands of that time, but Reign in Blood, on the other hand, sounds pretty unique and pretty innovative compared to it's peers. The fact that it's actually two years older than Surf Nicaragua makes this contrast all the more stark.
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Old 01-05-2012, 01:59 PM   #23 (permalink)
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For speedy music, I'll take Bad Religion any day over Slayer. Although punk and not at all metal, Bad Religion plays faster than Slayer with the same song lengths as those on "Reign In Blood," but Greg Graffin's vocals can keep pace with the music, where Tom Araya's just can't.

First part of Bad Religion's debut "Suffer"

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Old 01-05-2012, 02:16 PM   #24 (permalink)
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For speedy music, I'll take Bad Religion any day over Slayer. Although punk and not at all metal, Bad Religion plays faster than Slayer with the same song lengths as those on "Reign In Blood," but Greg Graffin's vocals can keep pace with the music, where Tom Araya's just can't.

First part of Bad Religion's debut "Suffer"
Meh. It's apples and oranges. Slayer and Bad Religion are going for two completely different aesthetics. Reign in Blood succeeds at being an intense, vicious, pummeling album. The bit of Suffer that I just listened to succeeds at sounding like poppy punk rock. It's weird that you're comparing the vocals here though. Tom Araya's vocals, while certainly not the focus, work very well in the context of Slayer songs. Greg Graffin's vocals, on the other hand, are one of the main reasons I've never been able to get into Bad Religion.
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:37 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Meh. It's apples and oranges. Slayer and Bad Religion are going for two completely different aesthetics. Reign in Blood succeeds at being an intense, vicious, pummeling album. The bit of Suffer that I just listened to succeeds at sounding... well... like a lot of other punk bands. It's weird that you're comparing the vocals here. Tom Araya's vocals, though certainly not the focus, work very well in the context of Slayer songs, while Greg Graffin's vocals are one of the main reasons I've never been able to get into Bad Religion.
Agree, definitely apples and oranges-- expect in terms of the speed of playing. And, you're also right in that Araya's and Graffin's vocals are very different; however, one of my main complaints with "RIB" is Araya's vocals can't keep up with the music, where Graffin's easily do, which is why I posted the clip.

Bummer that Graffin's vocals don't resonate with you. Bad Religion are one of my favorite bands, and they have a huge catalog of excellent music-- but if his voice doesn't work for you, the band's output definitely won't work for you because their sound is somewhat built around, not only his voice, but their multi-part vocal harmonies.
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:55 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Frownland, I can certainly believe that. My main two complaints with the studio version of this album is that they don't develop the song structures completely and the Tom's vocals can't keep up with the music. Every YouTube live clip that I've seen from any of the tracks on "RIB" have longer run times; therefore, the songs are better developed, and the tracks are played slightly slower so Tom can keep up on vocals, but that doesn't fix the problems on the studio version.
I can see your point here, but coming back to it after the concert it just helped me relive the experience. The rawness of it all that you described in a sense makes it more real though, like a true ejaculation of the rage and fury that Slayer really needed to release. But to each his own, I suppose.
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:00 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Agree, definitely apples and oranges-- expect in terms of the speed of playing. And, you're also right in that Araya's and Graffin's vocals are very different; however, one of my main complaints with "RIB" is Araya's vocals can't keep up with the music, where Graffin's easily do, which is why I posted the clip.
I disagree with you about that too though. The music of both bands may technically be equally fast (though the end result doesn't sound like it to me) but I think Araya's vocals serve that better than Graffin's. Graffin tries, not completely successfully, to be sing-songy and melodic with his vocals and it tends to make the music feel slower, even if it really isn't. Araya, on the other hand, spits the words out in a very percussive way, almost like he's rapping, and it generally adds to the fast an ferocious mood of the music. Is it perfect and melodious? Not at all. It sounds raw and off the rails, but that's perfect for the music. The song "Necrophobic" is a good example of what I'm talking about:

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Old 01-05-2012, 03:29 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I disagree with you about that too though. The music of both bands may technically be equally fast (though the end result doesn't sound like it to me) but I think Araya's vocals serve that better than Graffin's. Graffin tries, not completely successfully, to be sing-songy and melodic with his vocals and it tends to make the music feel slower, even if it really isn't. Araya, on the other hand, spits the words out in a very percussive way, almost like he's rapping, and it generally adds to the fast an ferocious mood of the music. Is it perfect and melodious? Not at all. It sounds raw and off the rails, but that's perfect for the music. The song "Necrophobic" is a good example of what I'm talking about:
As much as I hate the term and to admit it, I agree with you that Graffin's vocals could be described as sing-songy, but it just appeals to me more. It just sounds to me like Araya is just about out of breath trying to keep up with the music.

One additional point, Araya does not sing as fast live, where as Graffin does, but I'm taking us way off topic now, and like you said originally-- apples and oranges really. One more BR clip just for kicks. One of my favorite tracks, "Modern Man," which is super fast and melodic.

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Old 01-05-2012, 04:09 PM   #29 (permalink)
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As much as I hate the term and to admit it, I agree with you that Graffin's vocals could be described as sing-songy, but it just appeals to me more. It just sounds to me like Araya is just about out of breath trying to keep up with the music.

One additional point, Araya does not sing as fast live, where as Graffin does, but I'm taking us way off topic now, and like you said originally-- apples and oranges really.
Could be. When I saw Slayer in concert I don't remember noticing one way or the other really. I do remember them being damn good though. And fast.


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One more BR clip just for kicks. One of my favorite tracks, "Modern Man," which is super fast and melodic.
This is definitely one of the better Bad Religion tracks I've heard. Though ironically it sounds like Graffin's kind of struggling to squeeze all those syllables into the chorus.

Further off-topic still: Do you listen to 7 Seconds at all? If not, you might want to check them out. They're a good band very much in the same musical ballpark as Bad Religion, especially in terms of the bass playing. You might like them.
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:51 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Napalm Death were faster. Obituary were heavier. Autopsy were filthier.

Doesn't matter. I love those three bands but Reign In Blood sounds as fresh today as the day I bought it on vinyl in 1986.

I think every single song has it's own identity. The production is the cleanest sound you can ever get from such an intense album and every band member is on top form.

I still cannot find one single fault with this album after 25 years. Maybe I am being biased because of my age but I couldn't really give a flying ****!

I will say though that I genuinely do appreciate the OP review and it is well written and cohesive and sacred cows do have to be choped down now and again.

The only other album with that sheer intensity but still retaining control is Infest's Slave. They should put these albums in music class!
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