Missing Posters Bulletin Board

[SoundgardenRocks]

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

Then there's the people that think Stalin some how caused the drought that lead to the great famine

Wait...what do you think was the cause of the Holodomor? You don't think Stalin had anything to do with that?

[The Batlord]

Again, less Joe Stalin and more Joe Hill. The OG radical folk songwriter who inspired Woody Guthrie.







Who's been immortalized in song many times as a working class martyr for his life story.

[Lucem Ferre]

Originally Posted by SoundgardenRocks

Wait...what do you think was the cause of the Holodomor? You don't think Stalin had anything to do with that?

If that's when he hoarded resources away from the Ukrainians during the famine then yeah, he's a racist piece of **** but he didn't literally cause the droughts.

Which, OH has kind of defended saying that they were only treated that way because they refused to give up private ownership. I'm sure nobody is surprised by that.

[jwb]

He didn't cause the droughts... Nobody literally ever argued he caused the droughts, dummy

He collectivized agriculture and used the crop yields to rapidly industrialize... And when famine conditions arose he continued to export the crop yields to pay for industrialization. The fact that you might've had a much smaller famine anyway based on natural factors doesn't erase the extra millions of lives that were intentionally sacrificed for the"greater good" of the states objectives

It wasn't racism that drove the policy either. It was simply the pragmatic circumstances of the fact that ukraine was the bread basket of the soviet empire.

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by jwb

He didn't cause the droughts... Nobody literally ever argued he caused the droughts, dummy

He collectivized agriculture and used the crop yields to rapidly industrialize... And when famine conditions arose he continued to export the crop yields to pay for industrialization. The fact that you might've had a much smaller famine anyway based on natural factors doesn't erase the extra millions of lives that were intentionally sacrificed for the"greater good" of the states objectives

It wasn't racism that drove the policy either. It was simply the pragmatic circumstances of the fact that ukraine was the bread basket of the soviet empire.

Alright you don't know what the Holodomor is. It was racism against the Ukrainians and Stalin was intentionally starving them, not for the purpose of industrialization, but for the purpose of starving them so they wouldn't resist the Soviets.

[jwb]

Scholars continue to debate "whether the man-made Soviet famine was a central act in a campaign of genocide, or whether it was designed to simply cow Ukrainian peasants into submission, drive them into the collectives and ensure a steady supply of grain for Soviet industrialization."[94

From wiki

[SoundgardenRocks]

It is debated, but my understanding of it (forced collectivization policies in the five year plan) was that it was more motivated by class (Dekulakization) than by race/ethnicity. Which isn't to say there weren't plenty of examples racism and ethnic prejudice throughout Stalin's tenure. Regardless, the result was in effect genocide regardless of the motivations.

[jwb]

Actually my understanding is that the kulaks were largely sent to gulags and the like where as entire regions of the ukraine and russia were systematically starved under the industrialization efforts. Most of those people weren't kulaks. Kulaks were essentially the economic upper crust of the peasant population.

And there might certainly be ethnic aspects to it as well but again I think that's down more to the circumstances that certain ethnicities inhabited the majority of the farmland where the crops were grown. Stalin himself wasn't even ethnically russian, he was from Georgia.

There were other ethnic persecutions as well such as against Catholics and poles but that largely comes down to a suspicion over where their true loyalty lies... A lot of the seeming nationalism the soviets displayed was strictly strategic and about wielding and preserving power imo.

[Lucem Ferre]

Whether the Holodomor was a genocide or ethnicity-blind, was man-made or natural, and was intentional or unintentional are issues of significant modern debate.

Also from Wiki.

It's almost as if there are huge political biases that try to obscure facts to fit their agenda.

I also found out

A big notoriety was gained by a story that took place in 2006 under President Yushchenko: in the Sevastopol Holodomor Museum were exhibited photographs, which allegedly showed the victims of the famine in Ukraine, but later it turned out that the pictures were taken during the famine in the Russian Volga region in the early 1920s and in the United States during the Great Depression.

So the meme is ****ing real. LMAO

But anyways, as far as I understand the grander famine was caused more by the drought than policy and people like to blame policy for political reasons. You know, we live in a country that literally installs dictators where ever any hint of socialism crops up and spreads the most anticommunist propaganda in the world. Of course there's going to be people that say it was collectivization that caused the famine but to me it seems obvious that collectivization doesn't cause a lack of resources especially when the USSR had to go to the US to save them from starvation.

And it's also obvious that deprioritizing Ukrainians when it came to feeding people was also intentional and any contention comes from the fact that the USSR tried to cover it up as much as possible.

[Lucem Ferre]

And OH is not wrong when saying that it's mostly due to the fact that Ukraine wouldn't give up private ownership so Stalin was trying to make an example of them.