Music Banter

Go Back   Music Banter > Community Center > Announcements, Suggestions, & Feedback
Register Blogging Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Welcome to Music Banter Forum! Make sure to register - it's free and very quick! You have to register before you can post and participate in our discussions with over 70,000 other registered members. After you create your free account, you will be able to customize many options, you will have the full access to over 1,100,000 posts.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-03-2021, 09:12 PM   #6921 (permalink)
No Ice In My Bourbon
 
SoundgardenRocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA, USA, USA!
Posts: 2,589
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre View Post
Then there's the people that think Stalin some how caused the drought that lead to the great famine
Wait...what do you think was the cause of the Holodomor? You don't think Stalin had anything to do with that?
SoundgardenRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 09:14 PM   #6922 (permalink)
Zum Henker Defätist!!
 
The Batlord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Beating GNR at DDR and keying Axl's new car
Posts: 44,879
Default

Again, less Joe Stalin and more Joe Hill. The OG radical folk songwriter who inspired Woody Guthrie.







Who's been immortalized in song many times as a working class martyr for his life story.

__________________
CHINA IS CAPITALIST
The Batlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2021, 10:46 PM   #6923 (permalink)
Cuter Than Post Malone.
 
Lucem Ferre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,873
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundgardenRocks View Post
Wait...what do you think was the cause of the Holodomor? You don't think Stalin had anything to do with that?
If that's when he hoarded resources away from the Ukrainians during the famine then yeah, he's a racist piece of **** but he didn't literally cause the droughts.

Which, OH has kind of defended saying that they were only treated that way because they refused to give up private ownership. I'm sure nobody is surprised by that.
__________________
Quote:
Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

Art Is Dead. Buy My ****.
Lucem Ferre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 02:44 AM   #6924 (permalink)
jwb
MAKE MB GR8 AGAIN
 
jwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,565
Default

He didn't cause the droughts... Nobody literally ever argued he caused the droughts, dummy

He collectivized agriculture and used the crop yields to rapidly industrialize... And when famine conditions arose he continued to export the crop yields to pay for industrialization. The fact that you might've had a much smaller famine anyway based on natural factors doesn't erase the extra millions of lives that were intentionally sacrificed for the"greater good" of the states objectives

It wasn't racism that drove the policy either. It was simply the pragmatic circumstances of the fact that ukraine was the bread basket of the soviet empire.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trollheart View Post
"Now, repeat after me homies - YO! BIATCH!"
https://johnwilkesboothblog.wordpress.com/
jwb is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 04:30 AM   #6925 (permalink)
Zum Henker Defätist!!
 
The Batlord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Beating GNR at DDR and keying Axl's new car
Posts: 44,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwb View Post
He didn't cause the droughts... Nobody literally ever argued he caused the droughts, dummy

He collectivized agriculture and used the crop yields to rapidly industrialize... And when famine conditions arose he continued to export the crop yields to pay for industrialization. The fact that you might've had a much smaller famine anyway based on natural factors doesn't erase the extra millions of lives that were intentionally sacrificed for the"greater good" of the states objectives

It wasn't racism that drove the policy either. It was simply the pragmatic circumstances of the fact that ukraine was the bread basket of the soviet empire.
Alright you don't know what the Holodomor is. It was racism against the Ukrainians and Stalin was intentionally starving them, not for the purpose of industrialization, but for the purpose of starving them so they wouldn't resist the Soviets.
__________________
CHINA IS CAPITALIST
The Batlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 10:53 AM   #6926 (permalink)
jwb
MAKE MB GR8 AGAIN
 
jwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,565
Default

Scholars continue to debate "whether the man-made Soviet famine was a central act in a campaign of genocide, or whether it was designed to simply cow Ukrainian peasants into submission, drive them into the collectives and ensure a steady supply of grain for Soviet industrialization."[94

From wiki
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trollheart View Post
"Now, repeat after me homies - YO! BIATCH!"
https://johnwilkesboothblog.wordpress.com/
jwb is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 11:20 AM   #6927 (permalink)
No Ice In My Bourbon
 
SoundgardenRocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA, USA, USA!
Posts: 2,589
Default

It is debated, but my understanding of it (forced collectivization policies in the five year plan) was that it was more motivated by class (Dekulakization) than by race/ethnicity. Which isn't to say there weren't plenty of examples racism and ethnic prejudice throughout Stalin's tenure. Regardless, the result was in effect genocide regardless of the motivations.
SoundgardenRocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 11:48 AM   #6928 (permalink)
jwb
MAKE MB GR8 AGAIN
 
jwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,565
Default

Actually my understanding is that the kulaks were largely sent to gulags and the like where as entire regions of the ukraine and russia were systematically starved under the industrialization efforts. Most of those people weren't kulaks. Kulaks were essentially the economic upper crust of the peasant population.

And there might certainly be ethnic aspects to it as well but again I think that's down more to the circumstances that certain ethnicities inhabited the majority of the farmland where the crops were grown. Stalin himself wasn't even ethnically russian, he was from Georgia.

There were other ethnic persecutions as well such as against Catholics and poles but that largely comes down to a suspicion over where their true loyalty lies... A lot of the seeming nationalism the soviets displayed was strictly strategic and about wielding and preserving power imo.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trollheart View Post
"Now, repeat after me homies - YO! BIATCH!"
https://johnwilkesboothblog.wordpress.com/

Last edited by jwb; 05-04-2021 at 11:55 AM.
jwb is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 11:58 AM   #6929 (permalink)
Cuter Than Post Malone.
 
Lucem Ferre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,873
Default

Quote:
Whether the Holodomor was a genocide or ethnicity-blind, was man-made or natural, and was intentional or unintentional are issues of significant modern debate.
Also from Wiki.

It's almost as if there are huge political biases that try to obscure facts to fit their agenda.

I also found out

Quote:
A big notoriety was gained by a story that took place in 2006 under President Yushchenko: in the Sevastopol Holodomor Museum were exhibited photographs, which allegedly showed the victims of the famine in Ukraine, but later it turned out that the pictures were taken during the famine in the Russian Volga region in the early 1920s and in the United States during the Great Depression.
So the meme is ****ing real. LMAO

But anyways, as far as I understand the grander famine was caused more by the drought than policy and people like to blame policy for political reasons. You know, we live in a country that literally installs dictators where ever any hint of socialism crops up and spreads the most anticommunist propaganda in the world. Of course there's going to be people that say it was collectivization that caused the famine but to me it seems obvious that collectivization doesn't cause a lack of resources especially when the USSR had to go to the US to save them from starvation.

And it's also obvious that deprioritizing Ukrainians when it came to feeding people was also intentional and any contention comes from the fact that the USSR tried to cover it up as much as possible.
__________________
Quote:
Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

Art Is Dead. Buy My ****.
Lucem Ferre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2021, 12:02 PM   #6930 (permalink)
Cuter Than Post Malone.
 
Lucem Ferre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,873
Default

And OH is not wrong when saying that it's mostly due to the fact that Ukraine wouldn't give up private ownership so Stalin was trying to make an example of them.
__________________
Quote:
Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

Art Is Dead. Buy My ****.
Lucem Ferre is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads



© 2003-2021 Advameg, Inc.