I could go on with so many comments over the discussion that started last night and has spilled over into today in the negative things thread. But I'll make two points...

I came back on this forum to talk about music and get involved in music discussions. It's why I'm back in the Album Club and I took over the MB Album Classics, still in its infancy obviously. If I wanted to join a forum that reveled in hurling insults at each other, and hurtful insults at that, I would have joined such a forum and not bothered with music.

Two. Responding to yet another of Frownland's holier than thou comments, you sound like if someone is bullied and beaten to a pulp in a schoolyard, then he's the one who has a problem. Batty pretty much alluded to that when Troll reacted (and rightfully so) the way he did. I don't know what to say except, what the f*** is wrong with some of you guys? Did you all have bad childhoods or something and need to take it out on someone? I mean if you want to verbally attack someone, hang out on Facebook, check out a Donald Trump thread, they revel in verbal abuse there. A forum where all most of us want to do is talk about music is not such a place.

So I'm curious as to what the resolution of this will be. Is Batlord going to have to take a vacation or is this another one of your 'boys will be boys' rationales? Exo was right in his OP when he insinuated that this is a dying forum. There has to be reasonable guidelines, and yes, a mod has to make a lot of judgment calls. There also needs to be someone that can overrule a mod's decision (or lack thereof). Once again, you can be a forum where people can have disagreements and still remain civil (and yeah, some playful banter is fine), or it can remain the dysfunctional playground it has been.

Anyhow, that's where I stand on this. This is nothing personal against Batlord but there are some things you just don't say.

The general level of maturity on this forum is very, very low. So the attitudes and behaviors are as you might expect. I wouldn't be here if I didn't accept it on some level.

I just think a line is crossed a bit more often than many others seem to think, but that's for the mods to decide. I can always leave if I start feeling too out of place.

This isn't a dismissal of TH's grievances. It's just me musing a bit on the "what the **** is wrong with some of you guys?" comment above.

Context matters. Some members like to play rough and that's fine so long as it's consensual. Batlord's post was consistent with your relationship in the past and it does seem like you've been okay with it. However, you said the safe word and it's not something that's going to happen moving forward. I'm certain that everyone will be willing to comply with that and if not: :bonkhead:.

I'll be honest. Any context about hoping someone gets AIDS is personal to me. I was in my twenties in the eighties. I knew a couple people that died from AIDS. I would walk in town and see some nut with a sign that said Mosquitoes Carry AIDS which was their way of saying, 'kill all gays.' Wishing someone died from cancer is another phrase that I'm sure would offend some people. It's hard to be in a world where having feelings and compassion is somehow a weakness in someone. But maybe that is what is wanted here.

So it doesn't work for your context and any posts made towards you would be treated as such (not that you were really at risk). You don't speak for everyone, though.

I agree and disagree. There are certain things that are just straight up not funny. And yes, I have been guilty of throwing words around that were more offensive than not, but I've already paid my dues on that. I just think that even though we all are comfortable here and we have fun, there are limitations as to what you can and cannot joke about. Context aside, a joke about AIDS is just in poor view. If some people find it funny, I guess it works as a joke, but I personally don't find it funny. Same goes with the rape jokes etc etc.

Being unfunny isn't against the rules.

Fair enough. That's why I threw it in that if some find it funny, then it works for those people. That was more just my personal take on it. I'm also only going from the context of what was said in this thread as I've not even seen what the original posts were saying.

I've made quite a bit of fun about your taste in music in those past few weeks. Does that bother you? I genuinely dislike being a dick to people. My humour is a bit on the roasty side at times but I respect people not liking it.

i don’t think aids should be the sensitive issue here

more to do with a joke aimed at TH’s sister who we all know has went through some very tough things.

idk, i don’t think anyone on here could genuinely offend me and i don’t really shy away from saying inflammatory things to any of the ***gots like frownland or batlord but i’d probably approach a joke with TH or Lisna a fair bit differently since i see a lot less crude or inappropriate posts coming from them.

This. That's more-so what I was getting at. I wouldn't even think to throw an offensive joke toward them because they rarely ever throw it back. And even when they do, it's harmless. However, I also have to remember that Bat and TH have a past and I don't know what they themselves find funny or not. But, if TH is obviously offended by it, I think we can all agree that Bat shouldn't joke about it moving forward.

the joke wasn’t all that surprising, i didn’t think. what surprised me was that bat wouldn’t just back down and apologize or at least drop it. making a bad joke is one thing, refusing to acknowledge you upset somebody is entirely different.

Side note: Everyone should remember to quote posts that they're responding to, especially in active soccer threads.

make me, bitch

No, it doesn't bother me when people say I have **** taste in music. Even when it's not a joke, It's true to whomever says it. I'll disagree, of course, since I like everything that I, uh... like.

The only thing that bothers me about that is that people **** on me whenever I like something, then **** on me some more whenever I don't like something. I can't win! None of that has anything to do with personal attacks, of course. It's just proof that I have very little in common with anyone here when it comes to music ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At least we can agree on Roxy Music.

Who cares what other people think? It's a music forum; post what you like. I think that was Batty's problem. Troll made fun of a heavy metal comment and Batlord flipped out I guess.

I try not to do so much of the former but I'll give you **** for not liking something if it's for a silly reason that overlooks the value of whatever artist or album. I do it too, call my ass out.

Yeah, sure, but if I'm just ending up either talking to myself or getting yelled at for not having the right opinion, that kinda gets old.

I've got a handful of things in common with members in here, but that's horrifyingly little when you consider how many artists I like. Part of it is that I'm not really on board with the "canon" of any specific genre, so feathers are ruffled whenever I don't get with the program - which is all the time.

I mean, what am I supposed to do? Just stop talking about music?

I guess that's kinda what I did. I think my activity level must have dropped 5000% over the last few weeks since I don't really talk much about music anymore. It's not even a conscious decision I made. I guess it's just a natural reaction to it exclusively being an uphill battle. I think the album and metal classics threads killed it for me.

Plus I've got some other things that I'm interested in right now.

I'll give it a month, get some fresh air and remember to take my pills. Maybe my attitude will change.

You should do a love or hate type review thread.

How does that work? Will I get paid?

You get paid in attention and about 5% of the recs being actually good.

That's a good deal tbh

Sounds good, but there's always some small writing that comes back to haunt you later.

The problem I see is that either Batty will ignore this thread or will come in acting as if he's the victim, as he has already done. As I've said, sure that joke (let's call it a comment: it's nowhere close to a joke and it's not even remotely funny) might have passed under the radar if we had been trading insults. But we weren't. It came out of nowhere. This is actually a decent analogy of what happened.

Two guys who are always pulling each other's chains meet. One guy thumps the other on the shoulder and goes "How are ya, ya big homo? Ain't see you in days!"
The other turns and smacks him over the head with a chair.

Only one response to this: wtf?

But even if the comment might have been acceptable (it really wasn't, but I can see how he might have thought it would be ok), once I said no, it isn't, you've gone too far, he should have stopped. And Frownland, as a mod, should have told him to knock it off. Neither thing happened, which is why I'm so angry. The last comment from Batty was last night, demanding an apology from me and even setting a deadline!

Let this be very clear: I do NOT want him banned. I'm not a dick. Well, I am, but, you know, not over this. I don't really even expect an apology, that's not him. But this HAS hurt our relationship/friendship, not because of the comment per se, but because of his intractability about it when I made it clear it was not ok. That's between us though. I just want to know that when this happens again (and it will) to me or to anyone else, by him or anyone else, the mods will actually take action, and not just wag a finger while grinning behind their hands. It's very disheartening to find that that is the attitude of at least one mod.

1. I said nothing about your sister after you made it clear you didn't appreciate it so quit playing the victim like I ignored your request for me to not say anything about her.

2. You have openly said in the past that it didn't bother you when I made similar jokes so afaic I was playing by previously established rules.

3. You don't get an apology for arbitrarily changing your stance and then dishonestly acting like that's the way it always was. If you just told me that you didn't appreciate that particular joke I would have been to acknowledge it and make sure we were okay. As it stands now all you get is my acceptance of the new status quo.

I did tell him to knock it off, TH.

It's also already been unanimously decided that we can no longer joke about TH's sister.

I'd say we leave it at that and call it good. Anything TH and Bat have to say should just be in PM as it was those two involved. Just my two cents.

1. You didn't say anything specific about her but you went on and on about how you're "allowed" to do so. You're not allowed. I accepted that was how you were, didn't want to seem too thin-skinned, and you never went that far before.

2. See 1. The rules don't mean you can go too far. Also there were no rules as per above. Remember the crashed car analogy? That's you. Just because I let you say certain things doesn't mean I won't eventually take offence when you push it too far.

3. I don't want your apology as it would be forced and insincere, but you should know we are no longer friends. You let me down, big time, and that hurts. You don't care, which hurts more. Anyway, I'm done with you. Let's just see each other at funerals and weddings and leave it at that.

4. Another mod would have banned you, you know they would. You're lucky you are you who are and he is who he is, and that no other mod was present. But that's you I guess. You'll continue to push the limits till finally someone has had enough of you, and I hope it's a mod, and you get what you deserve.

Edit: it would have been so simple to defuse this. You could have just stood back and said sorry man I went too far. But you don't want to act like a man, just like a spoiled child who wants to be able to do anything he wants, and stamp your foot when you're called out on it.I really thought better of you than that.

This is the context that I was referring to earlier. When you allow it in some cases, it can be hard to know where to draw the line. That's why The Batlord got a warning and not a ban. He didn't know where you considered the line to be and thought he was safe.

But it's not something that's going to happen again now that you've made it clear where the line is, so move on ey?

Don't you think my response post was clearly telling him he HAD gone too far? But instead of backing away he went on about how he had the right to do it, (and to some extent, you did, too) because I had said it was all right, as if I did not also have the right to withdraw any perceived permission if I felt it was too much. Had he stopped there, we wouldn't really have a problem. Apologies, too far, move on. That's not what he did. He was told no and he continued to argue the case as if I hadn't the option of telling him to stop.

So what should we do? Ban him for not apologizing even though he said that he wouldn't do it again in the future?

I wouldn't have gotten pissed off if I didn't care. You decided that you being offended warranted throwing me under the bus and didn't care to calm down and look at the situation and your own feelings rationally cause I guess I don't merit taking a step back before you self-righteously flip out. If this is all it takes to be "done with me" then that's your issue and I'm not about to let you project it on me.

I told you I don't want a ban, nor an apology (if it was sincere, maybe, but I doubt it would be, as he still doesn't think he's in the wrong). I just want you, and him, to stop making it seem as if somehow I encouraged this, when all I did was tolerate it, and that I don't have the right to call time, and that if I do that, he should bloody well respect that. Is that too much to ask? Really?

I'm happy to let it drop, but you keep subtly pushing me as if this were my fault. I don't get the feeling I'm getting the support I should from you or other mods, and I fear this is the way things will go the next time too, which is why I am concerned that there's no real change happening.

If someone oversteps, they should recognise that they overstep, and not keep excusing it, is basically what I'm getting at here. So far, that has not happened, nor do I expect it to.

You didn't encourage it persay, but it is very difficult to tell where the line is when you tolerate something without saying anything. How would we know? I mean we know now, but this is in regards to the initial post.

Neither I nor Batlord have said or even implied that. From the moment I knew you were serious, action was taken to prevent it in the future. I think The Batlord is taking issue with the severity of your response to what he considered a light-hearted jab.

Nope. If he makes another similar joke to you he will receive a ban.

The only thing you got pissed off about was that "I couldn't take a joke". You didn't get pissed off that you'd upset me (unintentionally, I do know that) or that you had pushed things too far. You were more concerned with trying to justify your stance and making excuses for it, pushing the blame on to me instead of accepting it, apologising and moving on. You think there are no limits? You think you can say ANYTHING you like? I've news for you: you can only push people so far, and your response to my post was completely disproportionate as I already said, as a response to a joke you didn't like. Nothing offensive about my post, yours was nothing but. Why you felt you had to bring Karen into it is beyond me, unless your actual intention was to shock/hurt/upset me, all of which you did.

Maybe he got pissed because you kept telling him "**** you", calling him a cocksucker, and basically saying that he was the scum of the earth?

My point is (again, for the I don't know how manyth time) that once I realised he was saying that in response to a simple joke, totally unprovoked, considering the things he says, and has said, about me, yes I flipped out. Perhaps it wasn't the right way to handle it. I can accept that.

BUT

once I did, he should have backed off immediately and apologised. It was clear I was angry, was not taking it as a joke, and he continued to push me. THAT is what I have an issue with. I don't expect him to be clairvoyant, but when someone says "**** off that's not funny" it's a pretty clear indicator that it's time to stop, would you not agree?
He did, absolutely. He kept saying "you said I could" like a child, as if, once i had tacitly accepted the things he said there were to be no limits on what he could say. I'm baffled, honestly. There was never a meeting where we sat down, PMed each other and said "come at me bro". It just happened and I accepted it because as I've already said, I thought he knew not to go too far. And when he did, I thought he would back off.
I suppose that's something. We'll see.

I remember you literally saying that you don't mind Batty making jokes about you and your sister because you know he's a good guy at heart and you know he doesn't mean it in a hurtful way.
Couldn't find the post but this is pretty much exactly how you said it.

Yeah, as pissed off as I was that he wished AIDS on me from my sister?

Again, that doesn't mean he has carte blanche. That means I trust(ed) him to know where to draw the line. I didn't expect him to go as far as he did, and again it was UNPROVOKED! This is what really annoys me. There was no back-and-forth. I made a simple joke and he exploded with that comment. Why can nobody understand this? There have to be limits, and he reached them, and I told him he had reached them, but he didn't stop. How is that my fault??