DwnWthVwls

If that's the case then shouldn't you shift the focus to the things making sounds? If they are just making sounds without the intention of making music than how is it music? Music is deliberate, right?

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I don't got a god complex, you got a simple god...

The Batlord

You mean the basic idea of having a performance where the performers don't perform (or however you want to describe it). Regardless, the unnecessary nature of the physical composition still points me toward the whole thing being an intellectual endeavor about music, rather than an actual musical one.

What separates 4'33 from being performance art about music, and being music?

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Frownland

^ding ding ding ding. It's both. Why must there be separation?

That is where the focus is. With the instruments being silent, it works as an ampifier of sorts for us to be able to pick out those sounds.

As far as music being deliberate, that's just another arbitrary boundary that you're creating. On the song Master of Puppets, Kirk Hammet's string slipped off of the neck of his guitar and pressed against one of his pickups, making a note higher than he would be able to accomplish by just playing on the fretboard. Was this sound deliberate? No. Does this happy accident mean that the song (or at least that guitar solo) is no longer music during that moment of unintentional sound? No.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

DwnWthVwls

The audience's intention is not to make music. That is Cage's intention (via recording musical sounds outside of the performers sounds), and since the audience is the focus of the piece and they are the one's making the musical sounds to be interpreted as music then they should be intentionally participating or attempting to make music, which they are not.

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I don't got a god complex, you got a simple god...

The Batlord

._. You just totally danced around the question. If you're going to say it's both, then you still have to show that it's one and the other, without just being either or.

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Chula Vista

Steely Dan chose to become strictly a studio band for a number of years but they toured both before then and have off and on since 1993 after a decade long retirement.

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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

The Batlord

Irrelevant to the point. Unless you'd agree that Steely Dan weren't music if they didn't tour.

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Chula Vista

Bringing Steely Dan into the conversation was what was irrelevant.

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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

The Batlord

His point was about performing. If he'd said late-era Beatles or Darkthrone then it would have been the same point.

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DwnWthVwls

But my point was about the necessity of an audience for the performance which Steely Dan apparently did not need, so consider that point dead and buried, and let's get back to picking apart Frownlogic.

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I don't got a god complex, you got a simple god...