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Old 04-09-2011, 09:48 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Even though I don't support Charles Manson who is basically a psychotic evil bigot, and never will. In his defense, he was heavily exploited by the Beach Boys, in my opinion. He basically gave them a ****load of groupies so they kept him around, even stealing a song or two from him, and then kicked him out when he was less convenient.

In essence, this was before he trained his family to do the psychotic things. Again, I don't condone, but he was pretty used. I mean, do you like the Beach Boys who housed him on the false promise they'd make a career of him, and stole his songs? They're his songs. If you don't want to support them you might as well stop ever listening to the Beach Boys if you do.
Yes, I remember, right at the beginning of this thread you made it clear that you were talking about the music, not supporting or condoning the man, which is a commendable distinction to make.

You`re right, as well, the Beach Boys shouldn`t have recorded his songs without crediting him as composer, but wasn`t it only ever the one song ? I`m not really convinced that Manson was quite the victim that you paint him out to be. After all, Dennis Wilson let the Manson Family use his home. Did Wilson really promise, as well, to make a musical career for Manson, or did he just promise to give the guy a try out and access to one of the most sought-after recording studios of the time ?

Yes, the Manson groupies probably made quite an impact on Dennis Wilson ( although I imagine that any one of the Beach Boys could probably have picked up a groupie in their own right if they felt so inclined).
Anyway, if you`re interested, here are a couple of quotes from Ed Sanders` The Family about what was apparently going on at the time:

* " Returning from a recording session at 3 a.m.,Wilson discovered Manson and about twenty nubile caressing females in his living room. A friendship developed, and the Manson group underwent a multi-month mooch on Wilson`s resources that drained him of about $100,000."
* " There was one incident when M pulled a knife on Wilson, held it to his throat and said, " What would you do if I killed you? " Wilson reportedly just shrugged and said, " Do it !" and M lowered the blade."
* " When the single ( Cotton Fields/Never Learn Not To Love ) was released, it did not sell so well. As payment for the song Manson evidently got some cash and a BSA motorcycle."
* "Things got weird for Manson (at Wilson`s house). The Family had pretty much devoured the scene. Wilson`s fabulous rock and roll wardrobe became community property and Manson gave away Wilson`s gold records. This was evidently distressing to Wilson, who abandoned ship and moved to a house near the beach. Shortly thereafter, Dennis Wilson`s manager threw Manson and crew off the property."
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Old 04-09-2011, 10:32 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lisnaholic View Post
Yes, I remember, right at the beginning of this thread you made it clear that you were talking about the music, not supporting or condoning the man, which is a commendable distinction to make.

You`re right, as well, the Beach Boys shouldn`t have recorded his songs without crediting him as composer, but wasn`t it only ever the one song ? I`m not really convinced that Manson was quite the victim that you paint him out to be. After all, Dennis Wilson let the Manson Family use his home. Did Wilson really promise, as well, to make a musical career for Manson, or did he just promise to give the guy a try out and access to one of the most sought-after recording studios of the time ?

Yes, the Manson groupies probably made quite an impact on Dennis Wilson ( although I imagine that any one of the Beach Boys could probably have picked up a groupie in their own right if they felt so inclined).
Anyway, if you`re interested, here are a couple of quotes from Ed Sanders` The Family about what was apparently going on at the time:

* " Returning from a recording session at 3 a.m.,Wilson discovered Manson and about twenty nubile caressing females in his living room. A friendship developed, and the Manson group underwent a multi-month mooch on Wilson`s resources that drained him of about $100,000."
* " There was one incident when M pulled a knife on Wilson, held it to his throat and said, " What would you do if I killed you? " Wilson reportedly just shrugged and said, " Do it !" and M lowered the blade."
* " When the single ( Cotton Fields/Never Learn Not To Love ) was released, it did not sell so well. As payment for the song Manson evidently got some cash and a BSA motorcycle."
* "Things got weird for Manson (at Wilson`s house). The Family had pretty much devoured the scene. Wilson`s fabulous rock and roll wardrobe became community property and Manson gave away Wilson`s gold records. This was evidently distressing to Wilson, who abandoned ship and moved to a house near the beach. Shortly thereafter, Dennis Wilson`s manager threw Manson and crew off the property."
Well, he had to have known Manson was an ex con. It's foolish to invite an ex con into your house just for an orgy or two. Besides, if Wilson didn't expect Manson to expect him to give him a chance. Why did Manson share his demo with Wilson? Seems very odd thing to do.
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Old 04-10-2011, 09:49 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Well, he had to have known Manson was an ex con. It's foolish to invite an ex con into your house just for an orgy or two. Besides, if Wilson didn't expect Manson to expect him to give him a chance. Why did Manson share his demo with Wilson? Seems very odd thing to do.
That`s true, Wilson was pretty being naive and must`ve understood that Manson was hoping for a big musical breakthrough. I wonder how often that happens, that an aspiring musician has his demo ideas ripped off ?
Well, I guess we`ll never know what was going on in those guys heads at the time, and if the rumours about Dennis Wilson`s drug intake are true, he probably didn`t know either !
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Old 04-11-2011, 07:42 AM   #14 (permalink)
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there are basically 2 things that cause someone to be like this:
Psychology and Sociology
in fact a lot of times when thinking about these 2 factors when relating them to a killer or a rapist i almost feel sorry for them because the fact is there was obviously something even possibly a minor detail in their childhood that helped lead them to this. i think something some people forget is that everyone was a baby every one was a kid and everyone was once a teenager, and generally it's events when you're a kid and teenager that cause you to become this way and interruption in the developmental process. and how your mind is developed affects how it works, process and reacts.

but i agree that his music is very good
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:07 AM   #15 (permalink)
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i love Never Learnt Not to Love (Cease to Exist)
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:08 AM   #16 (permalink)
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something even possibly a minor detail in their childhoodd
Charles Manson was just released from prison at the time he started his family. Prior to that he literally spent more of his life in prison than free. Many say he actually likes, and feels comfortable in prison because it's where he basically grew up.
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Terence Hill, as recently confirmed during an interview to an Italian TV talk-show, was offered the role but rejected it because he considered it "too violent". Dustin Hoffman and John Travolta declined the role for the same reason. When Al Pacino was considered for the role of John Rambo, he turned it down when his request that Rambo be more of a madman was rejected.
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I was hoping there'd be a Charlie Manson thread here.
I've recently taken quite a liking to this song of his:

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Old 01-22-2012, 05:50 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Oh yes, the good Manson. I really like LIE as a whole, but I haven't checked out any of his other works.
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:40 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I`m sorry, but having read about the rapes and murders that he instigated, I can`t even bring myself to click on these music clips. Not that I`m trying to take some morally high-ground position; in fact, I admire your approach. A piece of music, after all, is just a piece of music, and your attitude raises an interesting question : should we assess a piece of art irrespective of the moral/political opinions of the artist ?
Would his music have deserved or received any attention if he wasn't already famous for being psycho?
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:53 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I wonder what Manson's story would be if he achieved critical acclaim in the music world and hence did not instigate any violence, or if his achievement wouldn't hinder his psychopathy.
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