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Old 08-13-2017, 08:25 AM   #6451 (permalink)
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A lot of Republicans were against slavery on moral grounds straight up

A significant portion of the party would continue to push for African American rights after the war too, even reparations
That was before LBJ or whatever the crossing over point was, so they were essentially Democrats though.
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:30 AM   #6452 (permalink)
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Well yeah ofc that goes without saying the racist southern dems are now the Republican party base
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:40 AM   #6453 (permalink)
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Very few. Mostly, it was these southern planters have an unfair economic advantage and they're bringing African savages into the country. Slave owners at least wanted to protect their property. Non-slave owners were either apathetic or just wanted a simple way to get rid of the blacks. There's documents of white abolitionists with decent intentions but their prevelance in society is deeply exaggerated. It was met with the concern we have of a mosquito eradication program today. Nobody cares about the mosquitos. It's all about how does this affect everything else.
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:41 AM   #6454 (permalink)
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Though I wouldn't say Republicans were comparable to modern dems beyond this one issue politics were very different

They were both just different parties
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:55 AM   #6455 (permalink)
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Very few. Mostly, it was these southern planters have an unfair economic advantage and they're bringing African savages into the country. Slave owners at least wanted to protect their property. Non-slave owners were either apathetic or just wanted a simple way to get rid of the blacks. There's documents of white abolitionists with decent intentions but their prevelance in society is deeply exaggerated. It was met with the concern we have of a mosquito eradication program today. Nobody cares about the mosquitos. It's all about how does this affect everything else.
Abolition was a huge grassroots movement in the north, extensively documented

To throw your cynicism even more for a loop it was also an extremely religious movement

If I were to hold your view on religion I might say Christianity ended slavery in N America
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:56 AM   #6456 (permalink)
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this is an interesting take but nobody worth appeasing gets angry over a confederate statue being removed

I mean really consider the reason they're mad about it

Nazis can catch these hands
^ Thanks, elphenor. Sorry, but I really don't understand the bolded bit.

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Why was it a mistake? Lee lead a treasonous army that attacked and killed thousands of members of the US military, that's not typically something we memorialize here.
I can see that it's still a very contentious issue in a country that isn't mine and I don't want to disrespect the feelings of Americans. Everyone can see that the Civil War was a huge tragedy; huge partly because the country was so evenly divided, and at the time Lee was a military hero to many Americans. The Civil War is now part of American history, as in fact is the statue itself. How long has it been standing there without exciting comment? Why not leave historical memorials in place, even if they commemorate things or people that are controvertial by modern standards of thinking? Another way to show disdain for Robert E. Lee would be to put a new, dated, plaque under the statue explaining when the statue was put up and how his cause is now largely discredited, but please leave your historical artifacts in place.
When a dictator is overthrown, it's very common that his statues are destroyed in the excitement of victory, but that doesn't apply in this case and imo no country should go around smashing up the monuments it doesn't approve of.


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Let's remember that the Civil War, at its core, was about those southern states wanting to keep their slaves (to stay very rich) and ignoring the basic tenants of the United States Constitution:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.”
^ Strictly speaking, the Civil War was about Federal vs State control; the whole issue of slavery was just an add on from Lincoln after they had already been fighting for years:-

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While not all Southerners saw themselves as fighting to preserve slavery, most of the officers and over a third of the rank and file in Lee's army had close family ties to slavery. To Northerners, in contrast, the motivation was primarily to preserve the Union, not to abolish slavery. Abraham Lincoln consistently made preserving the Union the central goal of the war, though he increasingly saw slavery as a crucial issue and made ending it an additional goal.

^ lol. Invasion 101: buy a map of the place you plan to invade.
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:03 AM   #6457 (permalink)
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^ Thanks, elphenor. Sorry, but I really don't understand the bolded bit.
It means he's gonna go punch up some Nazifolk.


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How long has it been standing there without exciting comment?
Zero years.

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Why not leave historical memorials in place, even if they commemorate things or people that are controvertial by modern standards of thinking? Another way to show disdain for Robert E. Lee would be to put a new, dated, plaque under the statue explaining when the statue was put up and how his cause is now largely discredited, but please leave your historical artifacts in place.
When a dictator is overthrown, it's very common that his statues are destroyed in the excitement of victory, but that doesn't apply in this case and imo no country should go around smashing up the monuments it doesn't approve of.
I actually think it's a lot more similar to the dictator analogy than you realize tbh. Lee is essentially a leader of a foreign country that laid stake on US soil.
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:20 AM   #6458 (permalink)
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Abolition was a huge grassroots movement in the north, extensively documented

To throw your cynicism even more for a loop it was also an extremely religious movement

If I were to hold your view on religion I might say Christianity ended slavery in N America
The ONLY abolitionists were fringe Christians who actually believed in the New Testament. This idea that the north was morally superior to the south is just bull**** revisionism to reinforce patriotism with the dishonest narrative that the good guys won and America fights for freedom. The only issues at play were money and greed. The north was industrialized and the south used blacks as agricultural machinery. The north didn't give a **** about blacks they just wanted to extend their economic advantage.
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There's probably some reasonable middle ground between Leave It to Beaver and being forced to suck your step-father's dick in the basement after your mom goes to work.
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:36 AM   #6459 (permalink)
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I actually think it's a lot more similar to the dictator analogy than you realize tbh. Lee is essentially a leader of a foreign country that laid stake on US soil.
Lee was a general. Jefferson Davis was the leader. I agree with your point though.
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:37 AM   #6460 (permalink)
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I know, that's why I said "a leader" instead of "the leader".
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