Physical discipline against children .. okay or not?

Guybrush · 02-02-2011, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Do you consider those of us defending spankings as punishment as violent individuals, and thus a product of the cycle?

I can't make a sweeping generalization about everyone who's pro spanking in this thread that they are violent. I don't think it's that easy, but I consider corporal punishment to be a form of violence and I think the positive attitude towards it is generally a result of the cycle. Many of those who defend corporal punishment do it with arguments like "it taught me right from wrong" or "I turned out fine in the end", so unless they are lying, it's obviously been part of the lives of many of the pro-spankers who have contributed to the discussion so far.

s_k · 02-02-2011, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

In my OP, I mentioned that the law is discussed in Norway because, while corporal punishment has been illegal since 1987, supreme court ruled some years ago that a light slap immediately following the offense was allowed. Last year however, supreme court decided otherwise and abolished that decision and now, even light slaps is illegal here.

I'm quite pleased with that.

I didn't know that. It's brilliant. They were talking about that here, too.
Wonder if that ever really becomes a rule here.

Ghehe, they should punish those parents by slapping them

.

~~Dirty~~ · 02-02-2011, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

As I wrote earlier, scientists are not complete idiots. What you're describing is the danger of hidden variables which is likely the most well known pitfall of statistics known to science. Really, they are aware of these potential problems and have methods to work around them to reach their conclusions. Had it been one study with some obvious flaw, I could've seen your point. But we're talking about a wealth of studies and it's not like science is without quality control.

It has nothing to do with scientists and how smart they are. I don't think anyone can really determine if a child being spanked directly leads to violence issues. It doesn't matter how many studies there are, there are just too many factors growing up that make the relationship of spanking and adult violence not worthy of holding stock for me.

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Right from wrong is obviously very subjective. From the point of view of me and perhaps Scandinavia in general, it didn't teach you right from wrong because you think violence is an okay part of bringing up your child. To me, had you learned right from wrong, you would've learned that you don't hit kids. Excercising your parenting philosophy here would be a crime punishable by law.

So, the "it helped me learn right from wrong" point, which has been made a number of times, has little very relevance and actually seems ridiculously ironic/hypocritical from here.

You are correct, right and wrong are subjective. You see a problem with lightly spanking your child to teach them a lesson and I do not, so I guess there isn't much of a further point to be made. But we could probably all agree on basic right from wrong, such as teaching your kid that stealing is not ok. I am glad I do not live where you live though, as that law would be in direct conflict with how I wish to parent my future kids and I can't imagine how silly it would be to get cuffed in a super market for slapping your child on the hand or something.

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You write as if saying "no" is the only disciplinary alternative there is to corporal punishment. If these kids are so cognitively handicapped, do you expect they will really understand dad's justification for hurting his kid? I don't think so, but I believe it hurts, both physically and emotionally. I also know kids learn real fast from their parents behaviour and will absorb that spanking like a sponge.

I believe that when a child is spanked, they know what action caused them to be spanked and they will likely not repeat that action for fear of being spanked again. Within minutes the sting of a light slap goes away and the kid has learned their lesson. As they get older and become able to understand and comprehend at a higher level, they can reflect and understand the reasoning behind the spanking - which is to teach them what is appropriate and what isn't.

djchameleon · 02-02-2011, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I can't make a sweeping generalization about everyone who's pro spanking in this thread that they are violent. I don't think it's that easy, but I consider corporal punishment to be a form of violence and I think the positive attitude towards it is generally a result of the cycle. Many of those who defend corporal punishment do it with arguments like "it taught me right from wrong" or "I turned out fine in the end", so unless they are lying, it's obviously been part of the lives of many of the pro-spankers who have contributed to the discussion so far.

you say that you can't make a sweeping generalization but then you proceed to make one in your last sentence.

No matter how many studies I see, I just don't believe that every single person or even a majority of kids that get a light spanking turn into violent bullies throughout school and become violent adults that commit constant crimes.

Paedantic Basterd · 02-02-2011, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Many of those who defend corporal punishment do it with arguments like "it taught me right from wrong" or "I turned out fine in the end", so unless they are lying, it's obviously been part of the lives of many of the pro-spankers who have contributed to the discussion so far.

I believe that the results of the poll are a direct result of upbringing. I'd be interested to know if anyone has voted for/against who had the opposite experience as a child.

Again, I feel like it's not a black and white issue, and that there's an extent to which one can punish their child physically without being harmful physically, emotionally, or mentally. I also think it's important to distinguish between degrees of behaviour. A child can't tell the difference between punching their brother in the ear and getting mad about being deprived of sweets, and a varying punishment can make the distinction clear.

I would be interested in knowing how depriving a child of entertainment is as effective, or more effective, than issuing them a smart slap for a particularly bad behaviour.

There will always be people who take discipline too far, and there will always be people who are more sensitive to it, but I don't believe this makes every parent who has smacked their child's hand a bad parent or person.

Guybrush · 02-02-2011, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

you say that you can't make a sweeping generalization but then you proceed to make one in your last sentence.

When someone writes "I got slapped as a kid and I turned out okay", that's a confirmation that they did recieve corporal punishment. If I then proceed to believe them that that was the case, am I really making a generalization?

djchameleon · 02-02-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

When someone writes "I got slapped as a kid and I turned out okay", that's a confirmation that they did recieve corporal punishment. If I then proceed to believe them that that was the case, am I really making a generalization?

no, you are making a generalization that them receiving corporal punishment has resulted in them being a bully and/or being a violent individual in general.

Guybrush · 02-02-2011, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

no, you are making a generalization that them receiving corporal punishment has resulted in them being a bully and/or being a violent individual in general.

I didn't think I did. It's not the way I feel. How did you come to that conclusion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty

I believe that when a child is spanked, they know what action caused them to be spanked and they will likely not repeat that action for fear of being spanked again. Within minutes the sting of a light slap goes away and the kid has learned their lesson.

Again, I just linked to a study which shows that the bonus of corporal punishment is immediate conformity, but that it is not a good way to promote conformity and good behaviour in the long term. Conveniently, you don't believe in scientific studies, but if you did, that should be a valid point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirty

As they get older and become able to understand and comprehend at a higher level, they can reflect and understand the reasoning behind the spanking - which is to teach them what is appropriate and what isn't.

They will know it in hindsight, but when they felt the hurt or acted out of frustration from getting physically punished by a parent, they didn't. The way you put it, you make it seem like they'll know the full extent of why they got punished when it's already too late to undo the immediate and potential long-term damage it caused.

~~Dirty~~ · 02-02-2011, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Again, I just linked to a study which shows that the bonus of corporal punishment is immediate conformity, but that it is not a good way to promote conformity and good behaviour in the long term. Conveniently, you don't believe in scientific studies, but if you did, that should be a valid point.

You should be more careful as to how you word things. It sounds like you are saying I don't believe in all scientific studies, and that would be inaccurate and putting words in my mouth. These certain studies don't matter too much to me. Do they make the distinction between light spanking and beatings? Surely you can see the difference between the two, right? After all, I don't think anybody here is talking about beatings or extremely violent punishment. And is it a surprise to anybody that beating and whippings cause long-term damage? Sounds to me like you think all of the hundreds of of variables have been accounted for by scientists "because they are smart." Unless a scientist lived with a family and followed them around 24/7, this wouldn't be possible.

Quote:

They will know it in hindsight, but when they felt the hurt or acted out of frustration from getting physically punished by a parent, they didn't. The way you put it, you make it seem like they'll know the full extent of why they got punished when it's already too late to undo the immediate and potential long-term damage it caused.

I will clarify for you and say that the child does not understand the complete, full extent of the punishment. The child understands that what they did is not to be done again, and I'd expect a child wouldn't do it again following a spanking. They might not understand why that action is bad or frowned upon. As they grow and learn the ways of the world, they will understand more. As for the immediate and long-term damage, I don't think there is much for a light spanking. I'm sure you could do some digging and find an article or study somewhere on the net that says light spanking is sooooo dangerous. But I've seen it first hand. I've experienced it. Tons of people I know have. And we have no violence issues and have nothing but respect for our parents and the way they raised us. So I'm not quite understanding the outcry or the stopping of spanking or the disgust or hate towards it when it has clearly worked for tons of people.

Guybrush · 02-02-2011, 07:07 PM

Dirty, please, read some of the studies. You are criticizing them, but you don't know what you are criticizing. You assume all the conclusions come from a minority who were corporally punished to the point where you'd call it abuse. This is not the case. Believe it or not, it is possible to study the effects of moderate corporal punishment. You have my guarantee.

As for the argument that corporal punishment works for a ton of people, that's not a valid argument. Wife beating worked for tons of people too. Shouldn't society's moral ideals be a little higher than aiming at what simply works? If you see someone hitting a dog, I assume you think they're being a ****. I'm not sure, but I'm taking a wild guess that you'd feel something like that. However, if you see a parent hitting a child, you think that's okay. Why is that? You really and honestly think it's good for the child long term?

View Poll Results: Physical punishment aganist children. Acceptable or Unacceptable?
Acceptable	50	56.82%
Unacceptable	38	43.18%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

02-02-2011, 07:07 PM	#510 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	Dirty, please, read some of the studies. You are criticizing them, but you don't know what you are criticizing. You assume all the conclusions come from a minority who were corporally punished to the point where you'd call it abuse. This is not the case. Believe it or not, it is possible to study the effects of moderate corporal punishment. You have my guarantee. As for the argument that corporal punishment works for a ton of people, that's not a valid argument. Wife beating worked for tons of people too. Shouldn't society's moral ideals be a little higher than aiming at what simply works? If you see someone hitting a dog, I assume you think they're being a ***. I'm not sure, but I'm taking a wild guess that you'd feel something like that. However, if you see a parent hitting a child, you think that's okay. Why is that? You really and honestly think it's good for the child long term? __________________ Something Completely Different*