Think about this

cardboard adolescent · 05-29-2009, 02:51 AM

i personally believe that we (mankind) are currently drifting aimlessly, clinging to a past that has an aura of meaning to avoid a present that has none. instead of creating a world of new ideas and values, which we are obviously capable of, we step aside and let capital take control, we create new markets to construct dream worlds we can hide away in, we create an entire industry whose sole purpose is to convince us to buy useless things, we create a socio-economic order to convince us to work useless jobs. just think of how many people slave away only to make companies more efficient, or the sheer quantity of useless 'status symbol' objects people surround themselves with. the whole point of modernism, of the 20th century, was to free us, to help us realize that beauty is arbitrary, that truth is constructed. for some reason this freedom terrifies us. if the world could stop clinging to its religions, its customs, its prejudices... we are all united by our desire to live and love, not to mention our biological imperatives. humanity has great potential, but i don't know if we'll ever realize it.

Freebase Dali · 05-29-2009, 06:59 AM

Regarding the evolution of our access to information a couple of you are speaking about (mainly Boo Boo), I tend to disagree that our capacity to learn is being atrophied by the fact that knowledge is now only a mouse click away.
I understand that prior to our abundance of technology, things were learned via studies that required an amount of time to undertake. That's a given. But to penalize someone for utilizing the abilities current technology has granted us is ridiculous.

Regardless of the medium, the determining factor behind any kind of success is the motivation driving it. Sure, it took a lot more back before we had what we have today, but do you expect us to intentionally dismiss opportunities for the sake of adhering to an ethic that is no longer relevant?
I'm not stating that hard work is no longer relevant. I'm stating that the old saying "God gave me a head to save my back" is reflective of a very basic wisdom that I'm sure "most" of us exercise daily.

As far as the statement that the abundance of information available discourages the desire to learn, well, I think that's an ignorant generalization.
There's a difference between a person who isn't building their knowledge and one who is. It has nothing to do with whether Google exists or the fact that there's spell-check in Mozilla Firefox by default. It has everything to do with the person.
And you might say: "Well we just have it too easy these days".
I'm glad for it.
To know that we can utilize our current abilities to better ourselves in ways our predecessors couldn't doesn't make me feel like we're failing.
It makes me feel like there's just less of us who realize we aren't.

And regarding seeking a higher knowledge that transcends our intellectual pursuits, well, I believe we all do that in our own way.
For some, it's music, for some it's art. Some people even make songs with their flatulence.
The only thing that will ever be important is that you fulfill your own path, no matter how difficult or easy it may be.

Son of JayJamJah · 05-29-2009, 07:23 AM

I think the problem is people draw conclusions and form opinions much more by reading about things as oppose to doing them. Reading about something used to force you to ask questions, to put what little portion of the entire puzzle you've learned into practice. Now instead we just click on the next link and draw another conclusion.

There are a lot of talkers and a lot less doers.

To me I've always looked at the progression as information (when combined with experience leads to) knowledge (when combined with experience leads to) wisdom.

The previous post makes some good points and draws some conclusions I disagree with.

I do think the wealth of information at our finger tips is dumbing us down, is discouraging us learning how to do things. I do think that is a generalization but anything but an ignorant one. Of course their are expectations, but they're are a lot more people who don't even understand how much they are missing out on. When you read something online, you share in someone else's learning experience, when you do something yourself you create your own expereince which has an abundance more or relatblei information that you can turn into knowledge and wisdom.

I don't think people should be faulted for taking advantage of the wealth of information so readily available to them, but I don't think they should confuse information with knowledge. I can read an article on how a helicopter fly's and explain it perfectly, that doesn't know anything about why it fly's, it means I can read and relay information.

Now lets say I never learned to read but spent my life fixing helicopters, I might not be able to explain how it flys, but I could fix it if it wasn't flying.

Where we go astray is we tend to trust the first guy still because in the past if somebody knew enough about something to explain it or break it down in great detail it was because they had knowledge about the subject, expereince and wisdom. Today there are a lot more of those first types however and most of them couldn't tell there ass from a hole in the ground unless they did a Google image search.

I also feel like there is an unwillingness to admit a lack of knowledge now, the same curiosity that used to fuel learning and growth is now looked at as a weakness by a lot of young people who'd rather lie about what they know and go look it up.

TheBig3 · 05-29-2009, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boo boo

Yeah, google has almost become our backup brain, our external hard drive if you will.

I mean it's helpful and wonderful and all, but a lot of people will start to rely on the internet more and more, to look up anything they wont bother to actually learn about. And thus they don't have to try too hard to remember things. To learn things in a more specific way and not just quote what you read.

Last wednesday I watched a film at the MFA on Child Advertising and how its effects (read: corrupts) children. They made a point to say that "you can't just pick up a stick and pretend its a wand anymore, you need the Disney version Harry potter wand" and that because of this, children can't even play any longer, they just reenact what they've seen on television and in movies.

I think Boo Boo and the rest are making the same point (in a general sense) about adults here.

But still I'm hesitant to believe that humans are so easy to silence. There will always be something uniquely human about them, and to reference the set-up in CA's first post in here, The race wouldn't have dragged themselves out of the mud if not for the ability to percieve things in different and often perverted ways.

If anything i'd say that this is a set back, a new stumbling block we must mutate and adapt to. In the end, my faith with us is persistant.

Freebase Dali · 05-29-2009, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayJamJah

I think the problem is people draw conclusions and form opinions much more by reading about things as oppose to doing them. Reading about something used to force you to ask questions, to put what little portion of the entire puzzle you've learned into practice. Now instead we just click on the next link and draw another conclusion.

There are a lot of talkers and a lot less doers.

To me I've always looked at the progression as information (when combined with experience leads to) knowledge (when combined with experience leads to) wisdom.

The previous post makes some good points and draws some conclusions I disagree with.

I do think the wealth of information at our finger tips is dumbing us down, is discouraging us learning how to do things. I do think that is a generalization but anything but an ignorant one. Of course their are expectations, but they're are a lot more people who don't even understand how much they are missing out on. When you read something online, you share in someone else's learning experience, when you do something yourself you create your own expereince which has an abundance more or relatblei information that you can turn into knowledge and wisdom.

I don't think people should be faulted for taking advantage of the wealth of information so readily available to them, but I don't think they should confuse information with knowledge. I can read an article on how a helicopter fly's and explain it perfectly, that doesn't know anything about why it fly's, it means I can read and relay information.

Now lets say I never learned to read but spent my life fixing helicopters, I might not be able to explain how it flys, but I could fix it if it wasn't flying.

Where we go astray is we tend to trust the first guy still because in the past if somebody knew enough about something to explain it or break it down in great detail it was because they had knowledge about the subject, expereince and wisdom. Today there are a lot more of those first types however and most of them couldn't tell there ass from a hole in the ground unless they did a Google image search.

I also feel like there is an unwillingness to admit a lack of knowledge now, the same curiosity that used to fuel learning and growth is now looked at as a weakness by a lot of young people who'd rather lie about what they know and go look it up.

That last paragraph you typed is intensely true.
With this net beneath us, we feel like no matter how sure footed we think we are, we've always got a backup.

But that's the kind of clusterfuck kinda situation that flips this whole thing around. It helps us, but it hurts us. It can hurt us, but it has such a potential to help us.

Something that very recently made me actually think about exactly what we're talking about:

My dad called me talking about a compressor for an AC unit for a house I'm selling, and me, not knowing crap about AC compressors, a lot of it was going over my head. He was giving me the specs so I could replace the compressor. (which is ridiculously expensive, btw... never buy one. Just go steal it.) So naturally, my first instinct is: "Google > type used compressors > find lowest price".
I realized that the knowledge he had was a product of actually working with the equipment. Sure, I can find the right compressor, but what do I watch out for? How do I know what I buy is of operable quality?
I really don't want to spend my life on Google, so I typically make a decision and roll with it. If I'm proven wrong with my decision, I will have learned.
But I can't possibly learn everything there is to learn just in case I'll need the knowledge.

What I'm getting at is: respect knowledge gained by experience, but if you happen to have gotten knowledge from an inexperienced source... well, that's experience.

~~The Unfan~~ · 05-29-2009, 08:13 AM

There is nothing bad from having more information readily available. I remember when I was a kid, before we bought our first computer, I had dreams of acquiring all the possible knowledge I could. I struggled in school because I found school work tedious and boring. Now, being part of the information age, everything seems pretty good. Being able to look up most things I'm curious about brings a certain drive and makes me want to learn more. Having it all available to me has increased my willingness and want to learn. The internet makes learning fun, which it should be.

Freebase Dali · 05-29-2009, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Unfan

There is nothing bad from having more information readily available. I remember when I was a kid, before we bought our first computer, I had dreams of acquiring all the possible knowledge I could. I struggled in school because I found school work tedious and boring. Now, being part of the information age, everything seems pretty good. Being able to look up most things I'm curious about brings a certain drive and makes me want to learn more. Having it all available to me has increased my willingness and want to learn. The internet makes learning fun, which it should be.

That's cool. But to me, the emphasis of my argument is placed on some people's inability to see the same virtues in, say, two people who spend several years in college... only one is traditional, and the other, online.

I'm only using that as an example of an end justifying its means.

Son of JayJamJah · 05-29-2009, 01:50 PM

I agree with the sentiment that having knowledge readily available is nothing but a good thing.

The down side of having this information available is becoming to dependent on "google" or "wikipedia" (to greatly over simplify the info available on the net) is missing out on the doing, the experience.

Someone (I think VF) said something about motivation being a common factor. YES YES YES. When you can just read about something you might lose the motivation to gain that knowledge through experience.

This is why people who read the book usually think the book is better then the movie, in a roundabout way.

Best metaphor I can give you:

I give the same Dresser unassembled to two people.

Person A is a carpenter and is given no instructions and no previous knowledge of piece of furniture.

Person B has never assembled any furniture but is allowed to select the dresser to be assembled by both and is given detailed instructions as well as a laptop PC.

Who is your money on to finish assembling it first?

Bane of your existence · 05-30-2009, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

i personally believe that we (mankind) are currently drifting aimlessly, clinging to a past that has an aura of meaning to avoid a present that has none. instead of creating a world of new ideas and values, which we are obviously capable of, we step aside and let capital take control, we create new markets to construct dream worlds we can hide away in, we create an entire industry whose sole purpose is to convince us to buy useless things, we create a socio-economic order to convince us to work useless jobs. just think of how many people slave away only to make companies more efficient, or the sheer quantity of useless 'status symbol' objects people surround themselves with. the whole point of modernism, of the 20th century, was to free us, to help us realize that beauty is arbitrary, that truth is constructed. for some reason this freedom terrifies us. if the world could stop clinging to its religions, its customs, its prejudices... we are all united by our desire to live and love, not to mention our biological imperatives. humanity has great potential, but i don't know if we'll ever realize it.

You don't think that going to a state where we are more than consumers in an economy would be a step backwards? I think the wavering towards the past is a byproduct of everything moving towards meaninglessness. What I mean is, I don't think it's negative to use the past as a model, when it's all we really have. It's not like everyone thinking that way is some traditionalist or luddite just stuck in the past for past ideal's sake.

cardboard adolescent · 05-31-2009, 12:37 AM

i think the past that serves as a model is just another fantasy world we've managed to construct. if things are 'moving towards meaninglessness,' what does that really mean but that our fantasies are confessing their own absurdity? is clinging to illusions to escape from suffering really all life is? i personally believe there is more to life than that, but that to find it you have to let go.

05-29-2009, 06:59 AM	#12 (permalink)
Freebase Dali Partying on the inside Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,584	Regarding the evolution of our access to information a couple of you are speaking about (mainly Boo Boo), I tend to disagree that our capacity to learn is being atrophied by the fact that knowledge is now only a mouse click away. I understand that prior to our abundance of technology, things were learned via studies that required an amount of time to undertake. That's a given. But to penalize someone for utilizing the abilities current technology has granted us is ridiculous. Regardless of the medium, the determining factor behind any kind of success is the motivation driving it. Sure, it took a lot more back before we had what we have today, but do you expect us to intentionally dismiss opportunities for the sake of adhering to an ethic that is no longer relevant? I'm not stating that hard work is no longer relevant. I'm stating that the old saying "God gave me a head to save my back" is reflective of a very basic wisdom that I'm sure "most" of us exercise daily. As far as the statement that the abundance of information available discourages the desire to learn, well, I think that's an ignorant generalization. There's a difference between a person who isn't building their knowledge and one who is. It has nothing to do with whether Google exists or the fact that there's spell-check in Mozilla Firefox by default. It has everything to do with the person. And you might say: "Well we just have it too easy these days". I'm glad for it. To know that we can utilize our current abilities to better ourselves in ways our predecessors couldn't doesn't make me feel like we're failing. It makes me feel like there's just less of us who realize we aren't. And regarding seeking a higher knowledge that transcends our intellectual pursuits, well, I believe we all do that in our own way. For some, it's music, for some it's art. Some people even make songs with their flatulence. The only thing that will ever be important is that you fulfill your own path, no matter how difficult or easy it may be. __________________ Last edited by Freebase Dali; 05-29-2009 at 07:22 AM.

05-29-2009, 02:51 AM	#11 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	i personally believe that we (mankind) are currently drifting aimlessly, clinging to a past that has an aura of meaning to avoid a present that has none. instead of creating a world of new ideas and values, which we are obviously capable of, we step aside and let capital take control, we create new markets to construct dream worlds we can hide away in, we create an entire industry whose sole purpose is to convince us to buy useless things, we create a socio-economic order to convince us to work useless jobs. just think of how many people slave away only to make companies more efficient, or the sheer quantity of useless 'status symbol' objects people surround themselves with. the whole point of modernism, of the 20th century, was to free us, to help us realize that beauty is arbitrary, that truth is constructed. for some reason this freedom terrifies us. if the world could stop clinging to its religions, its customs, its prejudices... we are all united by our desire to live and love, not to mention our biological imperatives. humanity has great potential, but i don't know if we'll ever realize it.

05-29-2009, 08:13 AM	#16 (permalink)
~~The Unfan~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Methville Posts: 2,116	There is nothing bad from having more information readily available. I remember when I was a kid, before we bought our first computer, I had dreams of acquiring all the possible knowledge I could. I struggled in school because I found school work tedious and boring. Now, being part of the information age, everything seems pretty good. Being able to look up most things I'm curious about brings a certain drive and makes me want to learn more. Having it all available to me has increased my willingness and want to learn. The internet makes learning fun, which it should be.

05-31-2009, 12:37 AM	#20 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	i think the past that serves as a model is just another fantasy world we've managed to construct. if things are 'moving towards meaninglessness,' what does that really mean but that our fantasies are confessing their own absurdity? is clinging to illusions to escape from suffering really all life is? i personally believe there is more to life than that, but that to find it you have to let go.