Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

Basically the issue here is the inherent duality involved in values. For instance, I have just entered into a debate with you, against my own conscience, with the intention of having you, and anyone else who reads this post, value my post as being true, and to reshift their value system to say that your post is not necessarily false, but doesn't quite grasp the Buddhist drive behind nirvana. That is, the concept of nirvana says that this is the wrong state of things. We should not be arguing. There is no reason for one of us to be saying things that are wrong and another one of us to be saying things that are right. By entering into this conversation, we are necessarily going to generate suffering. Either one of us is going to realize he was wrong, and either feel stupid or try to cover it up and drag themselves further into a hopeless position, or we'll both just stick to our own positions, feel that we're right, but still feel frustrated that we couldn't get the other to switch over to our side. The idea is, further, that this entire mode of valuation, of seeing certain things as good and others as bad, certain things as right and others as wrong, is in fact a mode of being which we are trapped by because we identify with it. And therefore, letting go of this mode of being seems synonymous to us with death.

And of course, it doesn't make much sense for me to say anything beyond this, because as I said, we are in a debate, and obviously in the mode of valuation. I am trying to construct meaning. The meaning I specifically was trying to construct with this thread was that for a moment, I experienced a different mode of being, one in which everything was free to simply be, and did not have to be good or bad, this or that, a fan of this band, this sexual lifestyle, this religion, this philosophy, this species... Of course, the way I am trying to construct this meaning is entirely impossible. The sort of meaning I am making now is meaning as opposed to meaninglessness--in this other mode, I could be typing gibberish and it would be just as meaningful, for the simple fact that I was typing it. I don't know if this post is useful or if it makes sense, I don't know if I'm helping myself or anyone else. But, in that moment, the only desire I had was to help other conscious beings experience the bliss that I felt. I realized that life did have a meaning, that, because everything is simply consciousness, the entire point of life is to bring all consciousness to its most ecstatic state--which is not its egotistical peak, when it can get all other consciousnesses to recognize how brilliant it is (which I am still implicitly trying to do here) but rather, when it becomes free to let go of this desire, and simply be, simply realize that all its attempts to grasp itself are the result of itself overflowing, beautifully, magnificently. I hope this helps you.

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

I dunno man, Nirvana sells for about 10 dollars a pill here. Exists pretty good to me.
I'm kidding, but I'm not.

I agree with most of what you said though. But I think that the search for true happiness, in whatever degree, is instrumental in providing a foundation of purpose and a direction in which to move forward in your life. Without it, nothing would matter to us. If all that was left would be the search for Nirvana, then Nirvana would simply take the place of the previously sought emotional states and nothing would be different. We'd still be trapped in the same perpetual motion.

Either way, I personally believe that the journey is more valuable than the destination. To me, Nirvana would be learning how to remember that every day.

Originally Posted by Thrice

Nice, I was going to say Nirvana doesn't have an 'e' and kind of rhymes with marijuana. All makes sense.

Originally Posted by tore

The only reason any one of us are on this planet is because we come from a line of ancestors stretching back billions of years who have one crucial thing in common. They managed to ensure the survival of their genes, they replicated. There are lots of lines that did not manage to do this and they're not around anymore.

If there's a universal "meaning" to life, that's it. The psychobabble might sound nice in your head and deep thought may be cool and bliss probably feels good, but that's not why you're on this planet today reading my post on some computer.

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

Really? I don't see what my reading your post has anything to do with ensuring my own survival. Seems more like one of those yearnings for meaning and connection with something beyond myself things...

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

It would have worked if this was a world full of you.

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

...It's about meaning, which is a state where two different consciousnesses can converge on a single understanding. If meaning didn't contain some bliss apart from its application, language would never have gone beyond the point of describing buffalos and weather conditions. We never would have developed philosophy, or religion, or poetry, or that music we're all so mysteriously obsessed with. If you disagree, follow the scientific attitude all the way into its nihilism. Everything is for the sake of its own survival, so why should it be? Even pleasure is just there for the sake of survival, but what's so great about survival in itself, if it's just a pointless, circular journey between pleasure and pain? Everything is pointless but only because we want it to have a point...

Originally Posted by mord

Actually, I like you a lot, Nea. That's why I treat you like ****. It's the MB way.