Odyshape

Well I understand there are morally no problems with believing in God or not believing in God. I agree with the agnostic point of view but I also think people should try to use raw logic to question their own beliefs, sometimes people are so driven by the communal and the unproven benefits they treat their beliefs as fact. Also the list is really referring to a Christian God, I really should have pointed that out.

mr dave

that's kind of my point though, belief and fact are not one and the same, most importantly - they don't need to be.

seems to me the entire fundamental of an actual belief is that it doesn't need to be substantiated by a fact. to force a belief through logical functions made to establish facts seems inherently counter productive. i do definitely agree that one should continue questioning their beliefs to make sure they accurately reflect the person they've grown to be at this point in the game though.

ultimately though, people need to recognize that the only person who benefit from their beliefs are themselves. there's no wrong, no right, just what one chooses to believe as an explanation for why we're here and what happens to us when we're not anymore.

to get defensive or argumentative about religion shows doubt in the individual's fundamental belief; to preach and proselytize displays uncertainty in the righteousness of said belief.

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i am the universe

Odyshape

I don't agree with that. You assume religion has no power in this world other than internally which is not true. Religious influences is a major factor for the well being of humanity and can act in a very negative way. To argue against what I consider illogical beliefs is not so much to limit what people can feel for themselves it is more because of the moral pressure and guidelines most religions feel the need to outline.

mr dave

but at that point you're missing the last half of my previous statement.

if you're not doing it for yourself you're not doing it for the right reasons (personal spiritual fulfillment). if it's from social or moral pressure then it's no longer a pure belief and you'd better believe someone higher up in that organization recognizes that fact and doesn't give a crap so long as their interests are served. that's no longer religion though, that's the use of religion as a tool for coercion and manipulation. it's not its intent.

i've also seen and read multiple reports on the correlation between very controlling religious environments and educational levels. they don't co-exist.

i could use a hammer to bludgeon a person to death, as a tool it was never intended to be a weapon, but i chose to use it that way. so why do all tools get the bad rap? when it's the individual human who is the evil one.

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i am the universe

GravitySlips

You're right that beliefs and facts are not the same, but beliefs that aren't substantiated by facts or reason are often going to be false beliefs, are they not? I can say "I believe it is cold outside" in July when the sun is shining, and say the same thing in January as it snows... clearly the belief is more likely true in January as it snows, so long as you're in the northern hemisphere of course. Similarly, you might believe the sun orbits the earth - but upon closer inspection of the facts, might alter that to believe the earth in fact orbits the sun.

It's perfectly fine for one person to believe whatever they want, regardless of whether it's even remotely based on reason - if you wanna believe the moon is made of cheese, fair enough. But when a set of beliefs have a major impact in the world we live in, then surely it is important to use logic and reason to try and find out whether or not the beliefs have value, and should hold sway in our world. Look at slavery - it was acceptable to believe that some groups of people could be kept as slaves until not long ago, and now that's regarded as immoral.

When these false or immoral beliefs manifest themselves as they have done, for example, on 9/11 (I say false beliefs, I am of course assuming that these men do not get 72 virgins in "paradise" after killing innocent people), then I think you could argue that it is anything but counter productive to use logic and reason when determining and analysing your own beliefs, and indeed the beliefs of particular groups of people in our societies.

I get what you're saying about coercion, but when so many people are evidently being manipulated in the name of religion, I think you need to start asking questions about the nature of what it really is they believe in, regardless of the fact that there are many people who may practice the same religion and are perfectly peaceful and decent human beings.

21stCenturyAndroidMan

Are you saying the moon is not made of cheese? I'm going to have to go and rethink some of my core beliefs!

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GravitySlips

haha I'm sorry man... although you never know! I say keep the faith

That's what I did with Santa, but I quickly lost my faith when I was about 10 and the girls in my school started ridiculing me! They can change yer beliefs easier than anyone, girls can...

mr dave

but those are quantifiable examples on relative issues. some people DO find it cold outside in July regardless of hemisphere. Lateralus talked about visiting a glacier and having to bundle up in a giant parka while other tourists were out in t-shirts. is her belief that it was cold wrong?

with religion there's no way to prove either side of the coin, so i don't see how it's possible for any belief to be false. it's just what one chooses to believe in, not right, not wrong, just what you believe in.

again the rest of your post goes back to the simple example i made about the hammer. it's the fear of death and the unknown that feeds the darkness in the hearts of men, religion is simply the tool they use to control that darkness in others.


as for the comment about being manipulated in the name of religion. i agree that questions need to be asked about what they believe in and why they choose the path they follow, but i really don't think it has much to do with honest spiritual development.

just like the way the hippies are now leading the war on drugs, people who get suckered into something bogus tend to be very defensive about establishing the legitimacy of their situation to save their ego's face.

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i am the universe

The Fascinating Turnip

Beautiful.

Odyshape

Belief in something that cannot be proven is not the only way to spiritual enlightenment. We should not delude our self on purpose because that stops progression of our own understanding.