Flower Child

I'm sick of arguing with you.


My logic which is based on science, reason, observation, and experience > your logic based on science, reason, observation, and experience

=

My opinion.


The end.


(if a scientist comes on the t.v. tomorrow with breaking news that the gay gene has been cracked, I owe you my sincerest of apologies, but until then you can kiss my ass )

No hard feelings, I enjoy arguing with you.

Freebase Dali

I would be perfectly fine with reading what you have to say about there being a strictly social aspect to homosexuality. All you did was say that's what you believed. Sorry if that doesn't get the gears going.
Please, make a case. But if it's just "I think", then you won't be taken very seriously. Provide something compelling.

If you need something more compelling from me, I will be happy to do some research for ya.

Consolator

Do a bit of research on homosexuality. It's been documented in pretty much every era of history and appears quite often in animals (particularly penguins and dolphins.) I was listening to a psychology lecture from Dr. Paul Bloom from Yale University, he had a lot of good ideas about the whole concept. From a biological standpoint, homosexuality makes little sense. It doesn't lead to any new offspring, you would think it would have died out. That is not the case, though. Why has it not died out? And why are same-sex attractions essentially the same as heterosexual attractions? (I mean, why do gay couples love each other in the same manner that straight couples do?)

This leads scientists to believe it is some sort of complex combination of genetics and hormones. It can't be completely genetic because there have been twins where one is gay and the other is straight. Have you ever read the studies about the differences of gay men's brains and straight men's brains? Gay men and straight women have the same shaped sexual neuron centers, while straight men and gay women have the same shaped neuron centers.

The argument that it's formed by upbringing seems pretty weak -- people don't raise their kids to be gay. At least, not by any majority. I am a gay male and was raised in your completely typical heterosexual couple household. It's also worth mentioning that my parents forced me to go to church for most of my life, and were devout Christians themselves. I played with hot wheels and legos as a child. I had no idea of homosexuality existing until middle school, and even then, I really didn't know about it. I just knew it existed. It wasn't until my (rather late) sexual drive kicking in in high school did my attraction to men set in. Nobody really knows the exact answer, but the general consensus I've found is that it is innate and immutable. Quite frankly, that's all that matters to me.

I suggest you read these, Flower Child.

Sexual orientation, Information about Sexual orientation

Sexual orientation, homosexuality and bisexuality

Flower Child

Oh for christs sake.

Maybe tomorrow.

edit: thank you very much for the information though

Freebase Dali

More to come too.
Oh, and don't try to play a "forced to go to church" angle either, because I was forced to go to church my entire life, and I'm straight.

Just covering that base.

adidasss

Sigh.

Will there ever come a time when people will stop trying to argue that homosexuality is a choice? It's such an easily refuted argument I don't and can't take anyone who propagates the idea seriously.

Shame because I don't think you're entirely off base, there's a high probability that homosexuality isn't JUST biological, but also the product of environmental influences (numerous examples of identical twins who don't share the same sexuality).

Still a major leap of "logic" to decide it's a choice.

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emostreetguitar562268

ok, just throwing this out there, particularly for Flower Child:

SEXUALITY IS NOT A ****ING CHOICE. if i could choose to be straight, i would, and maybe then i wouldnt have gotten beat up every day last year. admittedly, there are a few morons out there who basically force themselves to be gay because they think its the new trend, due to openly gay celebs like Adam Lambert and Ellen Degeneres (not that i dont love them both), but for those people its not really what they're feeling. there really isnt any way to just wake up one morning and say 'hey, i wanna be gay' and then REALLY be gay. its just not ****ing possible.

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VEGANGELICA

Very true. A person's sexual orientation appears to result from the interaction of genetics and environment, which affect brain development in early childhood (such as in utero), and eventually seem to lead to that person having a greater chance of feeling a romantic and sexual connection with one potential partner rather than another.

I liked those overview articles, Consolator. I especially liked the information that neuroendocrine studies suggest a person's future sexual orientation (which is reflected in some brain attributes) appears to result partly from the uterine environment that child experienced.

One more comment about your post. You said you felt that homosexuality makes little sense biologically. However, homosexual people can and DO have their own biological children, so the argument that natural selection would work against homosexuality isn't entirely valid, I feel. It is entirely possible for people to engage in sexual activity that is not "in line" with their core sexual feelings; so, people who are homosexual *can* have sex with someone of the opposite sex. Evidence: "There were an estimated 300,000 to 500,000 gay and lesbian biological parents in 1976" in the U.S. (Gay Parents - How Many Children Have Gay Parents in the US?).

Similarly, people who feel heterosexual can be sexual with someone of the same sex. People who are heterosexual can also have sex and children with an opposite-sexed partner for whom they do not feel a strong sexual or psychological pull.

I in no way wish to imply that anyone *should* have children, just that homosexuality doesn't necessarily prevent people from having children, if they want children. My point is that sexual orientation does not always equate with sexual behavior, and natural selection has selected humans with the ability to develop a wide range of sexual feelings and behaviors. Perhaps the reproductive advantages of this plasticity results in the ability of species such as ours to have members who are homosexual, bi, and heterosexual.

I agree, adidasss.

I find it interesting that people often debate so strongly that homosexuality may be a choice, like a choice between ice cream flavors, when people/scientists don't and can't answer why *heterosexual* people are *heterosexual.* Is heterosexuality a choice? I think most people would say no; it is just something that they *feel* and can't explain.

Sexual orientation is described in one of Consolator's articles above as "an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual or affectionate attraction to individuals of a particular gender"...or both (or none!), I would add.

When I patrol and consider my own feelings over my life, I realize easily that the few times I've ever "fallen in love" with someone it was not something I *chose* to do but was something that *happened* biologically to me. I can feel the effects as oxytocin and other hormones radically shift my desires, thoughts, and overall feelings, but I did not choose for a particular person to cause this rush of hormones and interest.

I can choose whether or not to act on my feelings (which can affect whether those feelings blossom or not), but that doesn't mean I could stop my romantic feelings from arising in the first place. I therefore assume that for you, too, this feeling of desiring to bond closely with a particular someone in a romantic way is also not a choice.

Sometimes I've wished I *could* control my feelings and make a choice about the person for whom I feel romantic love, just like Emostreetguitar says above, but I can't.

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Consolator

You're right that someone who is gay *could* reproduce, but it would not go along with their instinctual desires to be with the same sex. That's more along the lines of what Dr. Bloom meant, I think. Reproductive technologies such as artificial insemination are something that are relatively recent, the evolution argument is more for past eras of history. His entire point was that sexual orientation is not a choice one makes, it has been around for a very, very long time, and it isn't going away any time soon. My first post my have been worded a bit strangely, I apologize.

VEGANGELICA

Yes, that's true, Consolator...I agree with you. I guess I was just thinking about how a lot of the lesbian women I know have kids whom they acquired the...old-fashioned way.

Maybe this situation of people who are gay having biological children through heterosexual sex is partly due to a culture that resulted in people hiding or not acknowledging their feelings. You get married because you are supposed to get married. So, the couple have kids, but then one of the parents realizes (perhaps upon meeting someone else), that WOW, there are all these untapped feelings I had of which I was capable.

Then the couple usually divorces, but they sometimes remain friends because you can't really blame someone you love for being and admitting who he or she really is.

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