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Old 09-10-2010, 03:30 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Zaqarbal View Post
I repeat: What I do is to separate the two things: people <--------> beliefs.

I only can respect people. Because ideas are ABSTRACTIONS. Ideas don't "feel" anything.

Suppose you are a member of the Flat Earth Society. I respect you as a person. I defend your right to express everything you want. But I shit on your stupid superstition.
*standing ovation*
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:39 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by duga View Post
One: You can't judge every situation the same. Burning Mein Kampf and burning the Quran require completely different considerations.

Two: Ideas are abstractions, but people are intrinsically tied to those ideas. If you respect a person, by default you must respect the majority of ideas he comes up with.
It depends on the ideas, the person...

As I said before, my general rule would be "live and let live". I said in normal circumstances my attitude before bigots would be INDEFFERENCE, not a gratuitous provocation. I just ignore them.

But, what happens when bigots' pretension is to breake that rule?. Then it changes everything. That's the heart of the matter. Islam doesn't tolerate the separation between religion and politics. It's not religion "like any other".
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Old 09-10-2010, 03:56 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by right-track View Post
I have nothing against freedom of speech, or the right to exercise your cultural rights.
I just happen to think that in this day and age, burning the Koran is a pretty dumb idea. No?
In most days and ages really.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:03 PM   #64 (permalink)
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In most days and ages really.
I won't disagree with that, but more so now.
Burning a religious book in the middle ages wouldn't have got the same media attention as it does these days.
Now it's literally only hours before you can wip up an international suicidal bombing campaign.
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Old 09-10-2010, 08:21 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaqarbal View Post
I repeat: What I do is to separate the two things: people <--------> beliefs.

I only can respect people. Because ideas are ABSTRACTIONS. Ideas don't "feel" anything.

Suppose you are a member of the Flat Earth Society. I respect you as a person. I defend your right to express everything you want. But I shit on your stupid superstition.

-----

Morover:

Suppose we are in 1940. I would burn dozens of copies of Main Kampf in a public square, as expression of contempt. And I wouldn't pay any attention to the useful idiots crying: "hey, don't provoke them; remember we're living hard times, they are dangerous, they can kill us!!". Fuck the Islamonazis, fuck the Cristofascists and fuck the "chamberlains"!!!
To separate the two is to separate a man's ideas from himself. How can you possibly do that, when the ideas in which he believes shapes and constructs his very etiquette of thinking. What you believe and who are you are, are not two parallel dimensions but rather two dimensions that overlap one another. Your attempt at faux intellect is weak.

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Don't play the fool, boy. I don't give a damn about your teenager jokes.
You have, a cat. As your avatar. And you post pictures of cats. Facepalming. In an attempt at humour. The statement above is one that you are not in a position to type.
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Old 09-10-2010, 08:51 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Burning a qur'an doesn't seem like a very nice thing to do IMO.
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Old 09-10-2010, 11:09 PM   #67 (permalink)
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I continue to side with Zaqarbal that freedom of speech allows the destruction of books. The right to protest through burning objects you own (even bras!) should continue to be protected, regardless who is offended. Kitten-man, you've got my vote!

Religious freedom means that people can follow their beliefs without preventing others from following their own (or lack thereof), as long as all actions are non-violent. Although many conservative Muslims apparently believe the Quran is the actual word of god, this does not mean that other people have to treat the Quran as if they were conservative Muslims. The same is true for any book about any belief system.

Also, note that there are Muslims who support absolute freedom of speech/expression and encourage other Muslims not to react with violence to a Quran burning:

Quote:
A Muslim scholar writes about how to respond to the burning of the Quran:

"Islamic scholars can emphasize that the Quran clearly teaches that no one can be punished on account of the actions of others (surra 6, verse 164). In other words, it is against the value system of the Quran to punish Americans or Christians because of the acts of a small minority. And the more tolerance Muslims show for values like freedom of expression, the less others will think of burning the Quran."

Tawfik Hamid: A Muslim Response to Quran Burning - WSJ.com
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Originally Posted by duga View Post
One: You can't judge every situation the same. Burning Mein Kampf and burning the Quran require completely different considerations.
What do you see as the difference between burning Mein Kampf and burning the Quran? Both actions would risk violence by some of the people who revered those books. Both actions should be allowed as freedom of expression.

The U.S. is at its strongest when it does not give in to pressure to violate freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Just like people should be able to build a Mosque near Ground Zero, people should be able to burn the Quran. I feel our country's ability to protect people so they can coexist peacefully while having and expressing very different beliefs is our greatest strength as a society.

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Originally Posted by CanwllCorfe View Post
Burning a qur'an doesn't seem like a very nice thing to do IMO.
No, many people think it isn't nice. There would certainly be more constructive ways to express the truth that some Muslims resort to violence very quickly...just like some people of all religions (as well as non-religious people) resort to violence.

But I am glad this minister has the right to express his views in a non-violent fashion that does not directly physically harm anyone. I'm glad the U.S. has not made offending people illegal...though if it did, I could have the law on my side in stopping all you animal eaters.
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Old 09-11-2010, 01:43 AM   #68 (permalink)
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My thought on the matter: who cares?
If the people are going to burn Qu'rans then they are going to burn them.
If the Taliban were going to burn Bibles then they would burn them.
Everyone should see the blatant stupidity in these actions.

The real question: is this even really an issue?
One that should be publicized nationally?
The press should focus on important issues, not controversial attention-getters like "Qu'ran burning" and "Ground Zero Mosque."
But why stop when they're so successful?
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Old 09-11-2010, 01:49 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Trauma View Post
My thought on the matter: who cares?
If the people are going to burn Qu'rans then they are going to burn them.
If the Taliban were going to burn Bibles then they would burn them.
Everyone should see the blatant stupidity in these actions.

The real question: is this even really an issue?
One that should be publicized nationally?
The press should focus on important issues, not controversial attention-getters like "Qu'ran burning" and "Ground Zero Mosque."
But why stop when they're so successful?
You don't remember the Muslim reaction and resulting fallout to the Danish Mohammed Cartoons, do you?
I'm not saying we should walk on eggshells out of fear of pissing Muslims off or anything... but seriously... if you know something is going to cause aggression and provoke violence, you stay the hell away. The stupidity is this guy using the first amendment as justification for making a stupid move. What that does is not only cause problems, but paves the way for more rules and laws to be put into place to limit your freedoms anyway... Use your rights in a way that doesn't screw it up for everyone else.
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Old 09-11-2010, 04:26 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dr.Seussicide View Post
Is Zaqarbal of the belief that burning the Qur'an is a trivial matter? And that the freedom of speech mantra outweighs the blatant disrespect associated with the burning of a religious scripture? I basically have no religion, but, I am Presbyterian by birth, and I've learned the value of respect for other people's religious beliefs even though I find it difficult to agree with their preachings, practices and traditions basically most of the times. But the unnecessary repercussions that could result from partaking in such a narrow minded, simplistic train of thought idea is severe enough to make even the most academically ignorant person realize that it just simply doesn't make sense. What's the point to prove in doing something such as that? There is none.
uh...yes. why are all of you morally outraged all of the sudden? where is r/t and dr seuss' moral outrage at bible burnings that happen all the time, for no other purpose than shock value? because a handful of muslims across the world are threatening violence, this is suddenly an unconscionably offensive act, that you would go so far as to call a crime? what a bunch of ninnys you are.
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