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Old 01-05-2013, 11:08 AM   #741 (permalink)
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You're looking at it wrong. I'm not choosing between opposing sides of an argument. I'm taking up the logical position of waiting for sufficient evidence before I believe in something. So long as all I get is nonsense, inconclusive "evidence", and hearsay, I'm not gonna change my position. If that means that I'm missing out on something, then, oh well.
The problem with that mentality as far as pertaining to God is this. In every book of God on the planet,(the bible isn't the only one) God says you gave to believe to see, and the worldly attitude is " I have to see to believe". In all of the cultures holy books, it states you gave to be humble, and seek God with your entire heart and soul to find him, if you don't I guess you will never know for sure. If there is even a small possibility that your belief could heal a loved one with a terminal desease isn't that at least worth swallowing your pride and perusing. If you don't I guess you can't say you really loved anyone. There is evidence if you look for it, like it says "if you seek you will find" maybe check out a book called "the biology of belief" before writing off the power that is within us all. Quantum physics has proven that our thoughts and intention can actually change how the particles that make up our universe act. That should be enought evidence to at least make you curious enough to look for some more evidence, don't you think?
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:16 AM   #742 (permalink)
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The problem with that mentality as far as pertaining to God is this. In every book of God on the planet,(the bible isn't the only one) God says you gave to believe to see, and the worldly attitude is " I have to see to believe".
If that's what God wants me to do, then I really don't care. I'm not gonna give up my reason just because some deity of any kind says so. Any god who wants that isn't worth listening to. You hear that God? If you want me to believe in you, give me something tangible, or else you can go kick rocks.
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The Batlord is amazing man. He loves some fine woman and he gets horny easily. What is better than that.

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Old 01-05-2013, 11:35 AM   #743 (permalink)
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If that's what God wants me to do, then I really don't care. I'm not gonna give up my reason just because some deity of any kind says so. Any god who wants that isn't worth listening to. You hear that God? If you want me to believe in you, give me something tangible, or else you can go kick rocks.
Why not check out some "i am second" videos on you tube these are people that had the same thoughts as you and opened their mind and saw something different, the korn guitarist has a video (Brian "head" welsh, I am second) why not watch a few and see if something happens inside you. Or check out Anita moorjani's story, there are miracles happening everyday, scientist said she had days to live and no hope and they were wrong and called it a misdiagnosis to save face, this isn't an isolated incident, once you start looking for things like this you will find them and there are more than can be counted, but if you aren't looking for stuff like that you will never know they are there. You have to seek to find.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:54 AM   #744 (permalink)
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seekn4, you do realise that it is things like what you say that make atheists generally dislike religious folks, right? It is obvious that one will find "god" if he tries hard enough. It's very easy to fool the human brain. It will eventually believe in whatever you want it to believe.
Moreover, "you have to see to believe?" What you're asking us atheists to do is, pretty much, to believe in order to believe. If I am to ignore all the scientific facts and the likelihood of God's nonexistence, then I might as well just force myself into the belief in a god a little bit cooler than that Christian god of yours. I mean, I've always liked Thor!
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:02 PM   #745 (permalink)
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If I am to ignore all the scientific facts and the likelihood of God's nonexistence, then I might as well just force myself into the belief in a god a little bit cooler than that Christian god of yours. I mean, I've always liked Thor!
If you convert to Norse paganism, then I will too. If one person does it, it's weird, but if it's two people? That's a congregation.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:18 PM   #746 (permalink)
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seekn4, you do realise that it is things like what you say that make atheists generally dislike religious folks, right? It is obvious that one will find "god" if he tries hard enough. It's very easy to fool the human brain. It will eventually believe in whatever you want it to believe.
Moreover, "you have to see to believe?" What you're asking us atheists to do is, pretty much, to believe in order to believe. If I am to ignore all the scientific facts and the likelihood of God's nonexistence, then I might as well just force myself into the belief in a god a little bit cooler than that Christian god of yours. I mean, I've always liked Thor!
What I am poorly trying to get across is to prove that this universe responds to what goes on in our mind is to prove what the "holy books" call God, and quantum physics does that when they discovered the wave form collapse. Everyone wants proof, and the proof is there if you will look for it, however if you don't believe its there you won't look for it will you, so the holy books are right, you have to believe first then you will see. If you don't believe something is real first there will be no desire to look for it.
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:43 PM   #747 (permalink)
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If you convert to Norse paganism, then I will too. If one person does it, it's weird, but if it's two people? That's a congregation.
Sounds good. Perhaps if we get a few more people to join us, a few millennia into the future people will think we were serious!

seekn4, I did understand what you said. I can see where you're coming from, and why you'd think that. But work with me here for a second. Is it not possible to find proof even if you're not looking for it. At least it has happened countless times to me, finding evidence for stuff that I wasn't really looking for.

I never asked for any evidence related to the Evolutionary Theory, yet I saw it long ago and thought it was very logical. I received my primary education in a catholic school, and in spite of everything I was told, I never saw any solid evidence.

Like I said, if all I have to do in order to find this god of yours is believe, then why believe in that specific god in the first place? If I'm going to believe, and thus find evidence, wouldn't it be way more interesting to believe in another god? Moreover, I'm not even entirely sure in which god to believe: there are different branches of Christianity, right?

I just ask you to understand that some people just don't want to believe in a god that allows some people to shoot over 20 kids in a school (yes, I know, he gave us the ability to choose, although that isn't really possible, since he is omniscient and therefore already knows what we're going to choose, so I can only conclude that he is indeed cruel).

Believing in a god is great, though. There is a reason why so many people do it. There's certainly a reason why you do it. Even if we discuss different gods, whatever the facts are, one thing is true for all them: they are all adored. People don't do it for fear of being punished (for that would be ridiculous), so why do they do it? I know some psychologists have conducted tests that have shown that faith (not the religious kind) brings about many positive effects, such as confidence, positive thinking, courage, etc. With those traits, you can definitely achieve a lot more than if you fear doing things.
Of course you can easily gather these traits if you would just believe in yourself instead, but religion sticks and it's an easier kind of faith.

Anyway, to each his own. I will watch the videos you recommended, as I like to look at both sides of the coin, but I'd like to ask you to watch Dennett's video on YouTube named "Belief in belief," or something like that. He's not one of my favourite philosophers (I think he spends too much time mocking the religious people, but I was lucky to see him in person a couple of years ago, so I am a little biased), but he does have a good point there, and you could maybe benefit from watching it. If not, at least you had a look at another point of view, which can never do anyone any harm, right?
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:28 PM   #748 (permalink)
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I have heard dennetts lectures, he is a hater, like I said I have seen every point of view this planet has to offer I have been studying this for the better part of a decade. I think everyone has pigeonholed me and attached me to religion just cause I speak of the bible on occasion, I am in no way religous. I agree with what you said about believing in yourself, that is what the bible speaks of about the spirit of God being in you. It says to live by your spirit(feeling) we were designed to love and appreciate, our bodies respond to these emotions in a positive way, science has proven when we are FEELING these emotions our bodies produce all of the necessary chemicals for immunity, when we are FEELING negative emotions (anger, fear, hatred, despair) our bodies don't produce the chemicals and are on the decline. God is love and that is really what Jesus was talking about or any other holy book for that matter, even the Koran brings this message contrary to popular belief.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:30 PM   #749 (permalink)
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I can't disagree with anything you said now. We seem to be on the same page now.
Just one question: by popular belief, you mean American opinion? I know a lot of Muslims and not once have I thought worse of them or the Qur'an :P
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:59 PM   #750 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=verdi;1271410]I can't disagree with anything you said now. We seem to be on the same page now.
Just one question: by popular belief, you mean American opinion? I know a lot of Muslims and not once have

Yes, I mean popular western(American) consensus. Haha, I tend to spell things phonetically
You see like I have said before if people who say they don't believe in God would study what Jesus actually said and disregard what we have been indoctrinated with by religous interpretions our whole life you will see we agree more with eachother than we disagree, and that we are all the same on the inside no matter where you were born or who you are. Religion divides, love unites.

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