I take more comfort in atheism

The Batlord · 12-03-2012, 02:00 PM

So, slappy, I'm just curious where you think dogs came from? How on earth did wolves become Chihuahuas and Saint Bernards without evolution? Which is another tidbit answered in The Greatest Show On Earth.

slappyjenkins · 12-03-2012, 02:19 PM

---

slappyjenkins · 12-03-2012, 02:21 PM

Tuna I am so sorry....I know you started this thread to talk about your beliefs on God...I wish I had PMed you now.

This has gotten off on an incredible tangent.

I still believe in God buddy

Face · 12-03-2012, 02:24 PM

Off the top of my head:

Why evolution?

1. Populations have been shown to be able to diverge individual traits over time. This can be directly observed in real time through natural and artificial selection.

2. Isolated populations have genes which do not exist in other populations of the same species. Indicating that these genes were altered or created post seperation/isolation. ie blonde hair, lactose intolerance.

3. Ergo, isolated populations can demonstrably diverge from the original both physically and genetically over time. This is the starting point for the theory of evolution.

4. Fossil records show incremental development of skeletal structure, size etc over the ages. Most species/order have precursors in the fossil record, showing gradual change over time (such as horses). We share dna with our closest relatives, and less with the ones further away, which supports the theory of breaking off, but having a common ancestor, which is also supported in the fossil record for a number of lines.

5. The theory of evolution does not cover biogenesis or the origin of life. You can still have a creator at the beginning if you want, you can have randomness, you can have aliens, at this point it is PURE conjecture and evolution doesn't cover it. There are no conclusive answers at the moment. You are correct. But this does not invalidate evolution.

So, the theory:
Some traits/random mutations perhaps provide an advantage for reproduction, resulting in environmental/natural/sexual selection.
These progressively stack over time. First leading to a population of sub species, then a different species, each successive generation in marginally different from the one before it.
It reaches the point where they are a new species and can no longer breed with the old one (if there are still any around).

Aspects like organ development are more complex, but follow the same fundamental concept. But these happen at FAR earlier ancestral stages.

That's the start of it.

By the way, scientifically a Law is something that can be be demonstrated through equations, and even then it can be still referred to as a theory, relativity for example.

Multiple layers of evidence from different fields all point to evolution, and evolution explains many of the aspects we're uncovering in biology. Unfortunately it cannot be "proven" using an equation, nor can we use it to predict future events. Much in the same way as we know about past civilizations and how we consider the big bang theory.

The Batlord · 12-03-2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slappyjenkins

But it doesnt' change the fact that you can backtrack this down to a level where you have no answers as to how it all got here in the first place.

You're not talking about evolution. Like whatshisname (sorry, I'm too lazy to scroll up) said, you're talking about spontaneous biogenesis. They are two different things. Don't talk about them both at the same time. The Theory of Evolution doesn't have any bearing on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by slappyjenkins

I believe there does exist environmental factors that can cause changes in any species...but that species will always be 100 percent what it is. That poodle is 100 percent dog, that German Shepard is 100 percent dog, that pitbull is 100 percent dog.

So, you believe that species can change over time, but that there exists some arbitrary line that prevents them from changing too much? Isn't that...arbitrary?

Quote:

Originally Posted by slappyjenkins

you can say gradually over a billion years all you want, it's still not happening!

Quote:

Originally Posted by slappyjenkins

Is this another case of 'eh I'll just say whatever without providing any proof'

Face · 12-03-2012, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slappyjenkins

It's not a dog growing wings so that someday it becomes a giant flying bat-dog(you can say gradually over a billion years all you want, it's still not happening!). Or is that what you're saying?

The theory isn't that a species will suddenly sprout wings that initially give it no advantage.

A species already has forelimbs limbs and walks upright.
A population develops feathers, these either keep it warm/sexually attractive.
Luckily, this combination of feathers, forelimbs and walking upright means it can then glide short distances.
The further it can glide, the more successful it is. Individuals with longer forelimbs/lighter bones can glide further.

slappyjenkins · 12-03-2012, 02:46 PM

---

slappyjenkins · 12-03-2012, 02:47 PM

---

Face · 12-03-2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slappyjenkins

That still has to be proven through DNA or fossil record or hell show me one running around on the planet right now.

Do you have any scientific cases that represent this?

Flightless dinosaurs had feathers. Fossils indicate feather growth on some dinosaurs.

Birds came after dinosaurs. (fossils, fossil dating)

Birds have the same basic skeletal structure of dinosaurs in terms of types, numbers, placement and orientation of bones. (fossils)

slappyjenkins · 12-03-2012, 03:00 PM

---

12-03-2012, 02:19 PM	#42 (permalink)
slappyjenkins Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 214	--- Last edited by slappyjenkins; 01-25-2014 at 01:18 AM. Reason: suffered for too long over this

12-03-2012, 02:46 PM	#47 (permalink)
slappyjenkins Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 214	--- Last edited by slappyjenkins; 01-25-2014 at 01:19 AM. Reason: done

12-03-2012, 02:47 PM	#48 (permalink)
slappyjenkins Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 214	--- Last edited by slappyjenkins; 01-25-2014 at 01:19 AM. Reason: done

12-03-2012, 03:00 PM	#50 (permalink)
slappyjenkins Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 214	--- Last edited by slappyjenkins; 01-25-2014 at 01:19 AM. Reason: done with this

12-03-2012, 02:21 PM	#43 (permalink)
slappyjenkins Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 214	Tuna I am so sorry....I know you started this thread to talk about your beliefs on God...I wish I had PMed you now. This has gotten off on an incredible tangent. I still believe in God buddy

12-03-2012, 02:24 PM	#44 (permalink)
Face Music Addict Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: UK Posts: 306	Off the top of my head: Why evolution? 1. Populations have been shown to be able to diverge individual traits over time. This can be directly observed in real time through natural and artificial selection. 2. Isolated populations have genes which do not exist in other populations of the same species. Indicating that these genes were altered or created post seperation/isolation. ie blonde hair, lactose intolerance. 3. Ergo, isolated populations can demonstrably diverge from the original both physically and genetically over time. This is the starting point for the theory of evolution. 4. Fossil records show incremental development of skeletal structure, size etc over the ages. Most species/order have precursors in the fossil record, showing gradual change over time (such as horses). We share dna with our closest relatives, and less with the ones further away, which supports the theory of breaking off, but having a common ancestor, which is also supported in the fossil record for a number of lines. 5. The theory of evolution does not cover biogenesis or the origin of life. You can still have a creator at the beginning if you want, you can have randomness, you can have aliens, at this point it is PURE conjecture and evolution doesn't cover it. There are no conclusive answers at the moment. You are correct. But this does not invalidate evolution. So, the theory: Some traits/random mutations perhaps provide an advantage for reproduction, resulting in environmental/natural/sexual selection. These progressively stack over time. First leading to a population of sub species, then a different species, each successive generation in marginally different from the one before it. It reaches the point where they are a new species and can no longer breed with the old one (if there are still any around). Aspects like organ development are more complex, but follow the same fundamental concept. But these happen at FAR earlier ancestral stages. That's the start of it. By the way, scientifically a Law is something that can be be demonstrated through equations, and even then it can be still referred to as a theory, relativity for example. Multiple layers of evidence from different fields all point to evolution, and evolution explains many of the aspects we're uncovering in biology. Unfortunately it cannot be "proven" using an equation, nor can we use it to predict future events. Much in the same way as we know about past civilizations and how we consider the big bang theory.