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Old 07-31-2013, 09:17 AM   #111 (permalink)
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The fact that you're simultaneously criticizing liberal victim worship while falling back on the 'that's racist' defense when people criticize what they see as an unjust law is delightfully ironic.
Of course what Tore was doing is racist. Morals and values are byproducts of culture, never independent. To call another society backward, to demand ones own government take action against it, all the while referencing ethnocentric concepts such as misogyny and democracy - that's racist. It reeks of the same idiotic propaganda and moralizing that preceded the colonizing of the Third World, the primary difference being that instead of doing it for Christ we're doing it for minority rights.

Get it John?
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Old 07-31-2013, 09:23 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Of course what Tore was doing is racist. Morals and values are byproducts of culture, never independent. To call another society backward, to demand ones own government take action against it, all the while referencing ethnocentric concepts such as misogyny and democracy - that's racist. It reeks of the same idiotic propaganda and moralizing that preceded the colonizing of the Third World, the primary difference being that instead of doing it for Christ we're doing it for minority rights.

Get it John?
You know, you could probably use the same logic to defend black slavery. You can't really judge the slave owners, since they were doing what they felt was moral. If black people are inferior sub-humans, then they need to be led and taken care of. By their own moral code, slave owners were perfectly moral. They may be the same race as myself, but would I be wrong to judge their society, even if I might give the slave owners themselves some leeway, just by virtue of the fact that they lived in a society where slavery was morally allowable?
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Old 07-31-2013, 09:42 AM   #113 (permalink)
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Batlord, I'd say the primary difference there is that slavery existed within the confines of a singular nation. The question of slavery, then, needed to be resolved as a nation can not operate with multiple moralities existent within its borders.

Since we're on the topic of slavery, you do realize that the Arab slave trade continued into the 1960s, right?
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Old 07-31-2013, 09:47 AM   #114 (permalink)
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Batlord, I'd say the primary difference there is that slavery existed within the confines of a singular nation. The question of slavery, then, needed to be resolved as a nation can not operate with multiple moralities existent within its borders.
I'm not talking about how any possible issues in any muslim countries should be dealt with, but am I wrong in judging a society that operates under a moral system that I find repugnant? Whether we're talking about one society or multiple should make no difference.

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Since we're on the topic of slavery, you do realize that the Arab slave trade continued into the 1960s, right?
I wasn't. How charming.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:23 AM   #115 (permalink)
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I'm not talking about how any possible issues in any muslim countries should be dealt with, but am I wrong in judging a society that operates under a moral system that I find repugnant? Whether we're talking about one society or multiple should make no difference.
Oh, ok. Yeah, it's fine to judge them, but it's when judgment becomes combined with Government action that I get iffy.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:30 AM   #116 (permalink)
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Oh, ok. Yeah, it's fine to judge them, but it's when judgment becomes combined with Government action that I get iffy.
Ah, so that's your point. I can probably agree with that. I'm not one to worry about intervening in another country's affairs, so I've never given this specific issue much thought in that regard. But, just off the bat, I'd have to agree with you. You can't stop a heroine addict from doing heroin, so at some point, you've just gotta let 'em do what they want, and hope they don't overdose before they come to their senses.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:42 AM   #117 (permalink)
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Of course what Tore was doing is racist. Morals and values are byproducts of culture, never independent. To call another society backward, to demand ones own government take action against it, all the while referencing ethnocentric concepts such as misogyny and democracy - that's racist. It reeks of the same idiotic propaganda and moralizing that preceded the colonizing of the Third World, the primary difference being that instead of doing it for Christ we're doing it for minority rights.

Get it John?
HHBH, clearly you have no idea what racism even means.

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Originally Posted by Merriam Webster
Definition of RACISM

a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
What, then, is meant by race?

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Originally Posted by Merriam Webster
Definition of RACE

a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group
b : breed
c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits
I have never suggested that sharia laws or anything I've really criticized in this thread has anything to do with race. I don't think it has anything to do with race. Eugenics never entered into it. As a biologist, I am generally aware of when I think something is a property of biology or not and it is perfectly possible to criticize culture without criticizing biology. Why would you even think otherwise?

If anyone's being racist here, it is you, ironically. Because if you suggest that criticizing misogynist values is racist, then you claim that the biology of a particular race makes them more misogynist. Do you see the irony here?

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Old 07-31-2013, 02:32 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Of course what Tore was doing is racist. Morals and values are byproducts of culture, never independent. To call another society backward, to demand ones own government take action against it, all the while referencing ethnocentric concepts such as misogyny and democracy - that's racist. It reeks of the same idiotic propaganda and moralizing that preceded the colonizing of the Third World, the primary difference being that instead of doing it for Christ we're doing it for minority rights.

Get it John?
Nonsense. What you're basically saying is that it's racist for westerners to adhere to their own culture's values - the very thing you're trying to defend other cultures for doing.
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Old 07-31-2013, 02:37 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Nonsense. What you're basically saying is that it's racist for westerners to adhere to their own culture's values - the very thing you're trying to defend other cultures for doing.
i think hip hop bunny is sayin westerners shouldnt try to adhere to their cultures (laws) in other countries tho
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Old 07-31-2013, 02:56 PM   #120 (permalink)
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That's not the point. He's accusing people who call those laws backward or misogynist of racism. If they were laws in a western country, people would have no qualms about saying that about them. But because they're part of another culture suddenly it's not misogynist to charge women for their own rape, and to say that it is would be a suggestion of racial superiority? That's the same kind of hypersensitivity he was accusing western liberals of.
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